I just don’t think that you know what you’re talking about, and are letting your opinion get in the way of facts. Research numerous shows (in particular the charity shows) and you will learn that, indeed, “the million dollar per year people ARE subsidizing the sport as a charitable act.” No “sort of” about it. I’m trying to be polite, but you just don’t know what you’re talking about. These people put up millions of dollars per year and in many cases rescue shows that would fold without their support. I would call that an extremely charitable act.
Who was it that said, “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.”
There is a reasonable argument that the sport is becoming too expensive for many. If that is your point, then I’m certain that there are numerous other forums for you to express your opinion. The original question related to the cost of an elite hunter. I don’t see where your commentary advances the conversation. You haven’t contributed any meaningful insight into actual costs. Your opinion is unpopular because it is generally untrue and off topic. Facts matter.
This sport is expensive, we ride hay-burning, property-heavy, care-intensive animals. Having said that, if I spent even $100,00 on a single horse I’m pretty sure I’d be terrified to ride it.
Actually Belgravia had won quite a bit (including at indoors) before Lindsay bought him - probably best not to speculate about issues when you don’t have all the facts. That said, I completely agree that there are a number of very generous sponsors, including the Gochman family and Lindsay Maxwell, who go above and beyond in their support of the sport. We should all be thankful for their commitment to philanthropy.
Sure the cost to buy an already made and already winning hunter may be $500k/$750k/whatever but very very few people are buying and selling at that point… which is why the prices are so high. If you want that horse you better have the money to convince the owners to give him up. It costs much less to buy green or import (as most do), and even less to be a hard working professional (or junior!) who ends up riding for wealthy owners. Yes, it’s still prohibitively expensive, but there is not a minimum $500k deposit to show up at WIHS.
I recall a similar thread a few years ago about how “top jumpers aren’t as expensive as top hunters” and laughed. It isn’t just hunters. For example, I think it’s common knowledge that Cylana had a big price tag on her when she was sold. I bet there’s a few (maybe not a ton, but a few) top jumpers in the $500-750k range, too.
Anyway, the answer is yes. If some of the Uber Uber rich want a fancy winning horse, absolutely it’ll sell for high six (or shoot, maybe even seven) figures if someone’s willing to pay!!
Actually… the show runs five days a week, and sometimes it’s more than a dozen rings, now that they use the facility down on the corner as well. Plus there are often a couple of other shows running at the same time within a few miles. So there is no shortage of exhibitors, at least in Wellington.
As far as the price of a top hunter, it’s been pretty astronomical for quite a while. I knew someone who bought a very nice hunter for $500,000 at least 15 years ago. He won at Devon within a week or two. So at least they knew they bought a nice one!
Many years ago, I heard the description of those very expensive horses as the ten percent of the entries who win ninety percent of the top ribbons.
I really appreciate this perspective and I think that it is a very healthy way of looking at any part of life that tends to attract extreme wealth. It’s like art or an amazing symphony orchestra that depends on patrons for others to experience. Now, I get that these aren’t competitions but they are still places for people to experience something magnificent and beautiful.
On the matter of actual costs, I was very lucky to import a horse four years ago with the idea of turning him into a hunter. He cost 55,000 euros which worked out to about $75,000 at the then exchange rates. By the time I paid all of the vetting costs and transportation costs my total costs were about $85,000. I was extremely lucky that after a few months of showing in the pre-greens someone approached my trainer with an incredible offer - $200,000! Unfortunately, he was injured shortly after he sold and had to retire. Being giddy with my newfound horsey money, I bought the most expensive hunter that I’ve ever bought for $275,000. We campaigned him in the pre-greens and first years against a few of the horses that have been mentioned here. We just knew that if certain horses/riders were showing that weren’t going to be champion but I have to say that showing against these incredible horses never diminished my experience. In fact, it made it all the better to be able to appreciate the very top horse/combos in the world. There’s just something extra special about being able to see the best. I’ve learned to appreciate it and treasure those chances to see greatness. My horse has gone on to have success in his own right at many shows. We’ve set our expectations to be realistic. We’ve been in the ribbons a few times at Capital Challenge but I have no delusion of winning Devon or an indoor show - and that’s perfectly OK!
To get to the heart of the cost matter, if you’re talking about a truly elite hunter, well, that’s a very rare and precious thing. As someone else pointed out, it’s almost like a secondary economy where a small handful of people are buying and selling among themselves. There may only be 10-20 truly elite hunters at any moment in time, and only 10-20 people in the position to regularly buy and sell them. So, of course those economics are insane compared to the ordinary kind of crazy that most of us deal with in this world everyday. I’ve stopped worrying about the “haves” and the “have nots” and focused on the horses. Like a fan of any sport, it’s a treat and a privilege to have the chance to watch the best.
None of these $750,000 horses were $750,000 when they hit the straw. Someone owned every last one of them when they were $20k youngsters. The reason they are $750,000 now is because someone did the work, put in the training, and took them to the right horseshows and did well.
If you want a finished horse and have no interest in learning how to develop your own, then you will have to pay someone else the big bucks to play in the big leagues.
If you really want a fancy @$$ horse but don’t have the money for a finished one, then get one while it’s affordable and do the work.
Your trainer is getting rich.
There’s a revolving door of rated quality young horses that come over from Europe with small courses and a lead change for $30k.
The one that your trainer is telling you is $100k was probably imported 2 months ago for $30k.
Respectfully, I don’t think that this information is correct. I’ve imported eight horses in the past 24 months. All intended as hunters.
Ten years ago, you could go to Europe and find “bad” jumpers for 20,000 euros with designs on making them hunters. The market has corrected itself. I’m sorry, but there is absolutely NO way that anyone is regularly importing rated, quality horses for $30,000 nowadays. That’s just not true. Here are some real, observed cost factors with NO mark-up (except for whatever profit the European seller might take).
Two year old prospect ($78-92,500 to be “ready to show” as a five year old)
$15-25,000 US dollars to buy. Approx $800 per month to keep in care/work in Europe at a modest (but quality) operation. Assume that you import at four years old. That means you have $15-25,000 in purchase cost, another $18,000-20,000 for two years of stabling, training, feed, etc. For two years, you can easily count on another $5,000 for shoeing and vet work. It will be $5-7,500 to ship your horse to the US. Add another $5,000 if it’s a stallion for quarantine, etc. So, you’re total cost of a two year old that you leave in Europe for two years and import at four is $43-57,500 (add $5,000 if a stallion). For this, you get a four year old horse that is going to need a year or two before it’s realistically ready to compete. In other words, except for the amazing once-in-a-lifetime horses, you aren’t in the ribbons for a couple of years. You are working hard to “make up” a very green horse. Let’s say that you can board and train at a mid-level hunter barn for $1,500 per month. That’s another $18,000 per year. Let’s say that you show selectively - maybe six shows at a total cost of $2,000 per show (including entry fees, medicals, transportation, hotels). That’s another $12,000. And don’ forget $5,000 per year for vet costs. Let’s go a step further and OPTIMISTICALLY assume that your horse is magical and only needs one year of training in the US (because let’s be honest, horses take a while to adjust once they land here). That means that your cost after one year in the US for a horse that you bought as a two year old is going to be in the $78-92,500 range. (I’m also not including any trainer or broker commission. Let’s assume that you found the horse in Europe yourself.)
So, for an untested, shot-in-the-dark, hunter prospect/suspect, your investment is going to be in the $78,000-92,500 range for an above average quality (not impeccable bred) young horse at a mid-level hunter barn. For the sake of conversation, let’s split the difference and call it a $85,000 investment. No trainer is getting rich flipping $85,000 horses for $100,000. That’s just false.
How about you want to import a four year old and bring it to the US right away? An above-average quality horse is going to cost you $50-65,000 US dollars. Add $5-7,500 to ship (another $5,000 if it’s a stallion). Your $55-$72,500 invested once the horse lands in the US. No one is going to buy a four year old without a record. So you show it for a bit. Let’s assume that same 6 shows at $2,000 per total show cost. Let’s also assume another $5,000 for vet and blacksmith. You’re looking at $72-97,500 for a four year-old. Splitting the difference, call it $85,000. (Funny how that works out - there isn’t a way to reliably “game” the system.)
Also, good luck selling someone your 4-5 year old horse with 6 shows under its belt for $100,000 unless it’s a freak!
If you want to move up to a more mature 6-8 year old horse, expect to pay between $75-150,000 depending on pedigree, injury history, etc. No matter what you pay, it’s still going to take time to “hunterize” your horse. I’m assuming that if you are spending $150,000 to import a 6 year old that you’re showing A/AA shows. You’re also probably showing 10-20 times per year. For the math, assume 15 shows at $2,500 each (since the larger shows cost more). This is $37,500 in show bills. Another $5-7,500 to import the horse. You’re probably at an upper-middle barn, so $2,000 per month training and board. That’s $24,000. Assume $5,000 for shoes and vet. So, after one year, your $150,000 six year old import has cost you approximately $220,000. If your trainer charges 15% commission, you would have to sell your horse for $260,000 after one year to even break even on your investment. And, by the way, no one ever said that this horse was winning. It is just competing at the A/AA level.
Trainers do get rich. Not many of them. I’d argue that most of them work very hard and struggle financially. The ones that get rich sell top-top-top quality $200-300,000 imports for $500,000 and “made” horses for $600-1,000,000.
If someone out there really knows of a magical “revolving door” of top quality, rated $30,000 hunters ready to show for $30,000, then please call me. I’ll take five of those right now!
I would say top jumpers are considerably more expensive than top hunters, by a factor of 10. There are far far fewer legit 5* 1.60/1.70 horses in the world than pretty 1.10/1.20 horses, and the prices definitely reflect that.
I also still think you can buy a lot of 1.10 horses in Europe for 20k. Like a lot of them. They may not make top hunters, but as has been said above and elsewhere, very few horses at any price will become the best of the best in any discipline, and yet they can still be loved and enjoyed by people who themselves will never make top riders in any discipline.
I’m a newbie so forgive the dumb questions but couldn’t we just settle this debate with a few simple questions? Are either Catch Me or Belgravia for sale? How much are they asking for Catch Me and Belgravia? Or how much with Catch Me and Belgravia cost their currrent owners to buy? If those are the best hunters going, then wouldn’t it figure that they’re at the top of the market? Wouldn’t other hunters necessarily be less expensive? Or am I just missing something completely?
The comment I was responded to was claiming she could only find a “very green, very young horse that needs a lot of work”, for her $100k budget, purportedly to make up as a hunter. I said those are available for $30k.
You wrote me your several paragraph lecture as if I have never ridden in a sale barn or trained from scratch and sold an investment horse for more than I paid for my first house while earning a decidedly non 1% deskjob income of about 50k, and then concluded for your grand flourish that “top quality ready to show” hunters aren’t available for $30k.
Yeah, [edit], but the “very young ones that need a lot work” are.
If that person’s trainer can’t find her a very young, very green horse that needs a lot of work for less than a hundred k, that commenter should pm me bc I could make a few phonecalls and find her several prospects that could certainly make up for an amateur for 1/3 that budget. And could likely be 75k after 6 months in a good development program.
Instead of being defensive and feeling the need to share your resume with the world, why don’t you re-read the comment that you chose to quote? The poster was correct (in my observation and experience) in terms of cost factors: $300-400,000 buys you a nice hunter that’s in the ribbons but may not be winning Devon unless you’re an exceptional rider. I think left unstated here is that one of the challenges here may be that the best amateur rider also has the best horses which makes the entire point of valuing an elite hunter very difficult. The reality is that somebody else might not win with that horse.
Sure, there are an abundance of very young, very green horses for $30,000. I don’t believe that these horses are top quality, nor are they likely to win Devon and WEF and indoors. That doesn’t mean that they aren’t perfectly nice, pleasant horses that will make someone very happy. Again, the point of the original post was the cost of an elite hunter. It’s not $30,000. My exercise in communicating actual cost factors is to demonstrate that less expensive, green horses often cost just as much as more “made” horses by the time that they are ready to compete on a big stage against the top horses.
I didn’t mean to offend you. I certainly don’t think that you need to invoke profanity. You made your point. I don’t think that it helped answer the original question. Given your experiences. I would be very curious to learn what you would advise one of your clients or friends to pay for a truly elite hunter?
Of course there are plenty of very nice very green horses for 30k - 50k. The problem is, as illustrated by the OP, is they are no longer in that price range when they get to the consumer.
Great thread and reading is making me glad I am looking for an excellent hunter prospect in the AQHA world, where the homebred and started price is $15K for a two year old who checks all the boxes, and has the step to maybe someday cross over to Adult Am USEF hunters.
I was educated to the value of top class (not the elite) hunters while watching several older A/O at Wellington. These riders were not monkeys, but did make small distance or riding position or apprehension errors. Those horses ignored them and went around in good cadence and very good form. That is value returned for whatever the horse cost.
Re: several comments on making up the prospect yourself to arrive at the $$$ finished horse. Better start with at least 3 of those good prospects.
