100% correct! Start with three prospects, keep your fingers crossed, MAYBE end up with one quality, accomplished, finished horse. So so true!
I would say the ones that will go on to win consistently at Indoors are a bit of a freak…and a trainer with a good eye will see that and maybe, if they’re willing to risk bringing it along themselves, offer you 100k after it’s first show in the pre-greens. And you and they will know it’s a bit of a low-ball offer for a horse with the potential to win at indoors.
But still a lot of money for a freaking horse if you don’t have that kind of cash to burn!! And horse was likely over 30k, but maybe under 80k, as a 4 year old, because other people will know athleticism when they see it, even if they’re not well versed in hunters (less likely these days, I think).
If that offer was 250K (on an 80k prospect (or “only” 100k for 30k prospect))… I would advise anyone to TAKE THE MONEY. :lol: An offer of 100k on an 80k horse…maybe, maybe not. I’d probably still sell, but I am risk-adverse like that, and people playing with 400k+++ probably are not or it’s still “pocket change” to them.
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I did read the post. The poster claimed that for $100k, the only thing available was something very young and very green that needed a lot of work.
That is flatly preposterous. Give me $30k and I will find something 3-5 years old that is ammy friendly and can be made up to a 3’ or 3’6" hunter. I’ve gotten a piece at rated shows w ottbs, a wb that was $30k as a green broke 4yo is much easier.
I wouldn’t advise people to buy the “truly elite hunter.” The vast majority of AA clients don’t need a finished “truly elite” horse for half a million dollars.
I’ve ridden in sales barns and ridden lists of horses that initially cost $30k or less and went on to be $75k-$200k+ amateur friendly horses.
My own horse that sold for more than my house was purchased for four figures, and is now getting ribbons with his new older adult at big name AA shows.
I think board costs the same on an appreciating assset as a maxed out one, and I was fortunate to learn from trainers who emphasized making their clients money with their investment horses instead of just upcharging everyrhing to the point that the only one who wins is the trainer.
I also think a good trainer can make their clients money, and if I am going to spend even low fives on someone’s advice and pay thrm a monthly training fee I want to see a demonstrated history of profitably stewarding the clients’ investments. It exists, but then again you also have trainers convincing people no quality green as grass 4yos exist for less than 100K and people lime you yamnering on that no decent four year olds exist for less than $75k.
If you truly feel that the only way to get an above average four year old is to pay $75k, congrats on being a cash cow for whoever you are working with. I know several amateurs out there who are competitive on horses who were purchased for much, much less. My former horse included, as well as a whole list of youngsters I rode for other people. I know several, SEVERAL, horses who came over for $30k who were sold for six figures within six months to a year.
In dressage land, a young stallion just sold for $2.1 million, but the horse that holds three world records? He was purchased as a youngster for 5,000GBP.
Maybe expect your trainer to actually help you make money instead of just spend it if you want to play the big wheeler dealer on COTH.
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Thank you. My trainer also has had great (and recent) success bringing $30-50k horses into the barn and making them successful 6 figure sales horses in a relatively short turnaround. Some people just have a better eye and can see the potential of the 1.10m European jumper whereas others may need a Stal Wilten type deal where the horse is already started or presented as a hunter in Europe after failing out of jumper land. The former can still be found for $30-50k, and yes the latter are $75k. She has also pulled some eventers over to hunterland and had great success with them as well. Not all trainers have a great eye, so it’s great if you can pair up with someone who has the ability to see the potential and then also has the talent to bring the horse along. Sure, you won’t likely get the $500k horse for that price, but she did turn a $30k into a $275k flip for the owners. They are still out there if the trainer has the right agent in Germany and a good eye!
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It is getting tougher to find deals in Europe; they’ve wizened up quite a bit just in the past 5 years. My particular clients were very keen to hear what made one a hunter other than it just being “too slow”… they eventually learned to steer quiet + average to the equitation track, and quiet + gorgeous to the hunter track, and sell the rest quick for whatever they can get. They started taking long-topline conformation shots in addition to the proud jumper stance type, started weaning the horses off the short rein contact, bought fake flowers and logs for their jumps, and found legions of american kids happy to two-point around in sale videos for a 3 month working stint in Europe.
In short, Europe has gotten very, very smart. $30k does not get you what it used to there, even just 5 years ago, no more flipping rocks and finding bargains. It takes a lot of good connections and $h!t sifting to find someone that doesn’t know what they have. Most amateurs don’t have the contacts to find it and most trainers don’t have the time sift through $h!t just to make even less money.
I can understand why an amateur might be getting nudged near 100k for a very nice AO hunter prospect that she can also enjoy as it learns to become a winning citizen. Depending a whole heck of a lot on the amateur’s ability, work schedule, and near-term goals, she may be putting a good chunk of that $$$ towards a tremendously good brain and at least enough US show miles for it to be a somewhat known quantity. Can she do it for less? Absolutely, but probably at a higher risk to her goals, and so it begs the question why?
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This thread is proof that the hunter world has gone off the [edit] rails. That trainers would rather spend clients money to get a ribbon than to teach the client to be horsemen is the height of ignorance and treats horses as commodities. I agree with several posters here on several points though. To those who justify the expense of these horses, so far your only reason is a show record and that amateurs are incapable of actually riding. Maybe you need to train the riders to actually ride?
Glad I only spent $8500 on an untrained horse that got me long listed on the Olympic team.
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Honestly.
And it doesn’t even need to come from Europe. There are plenty of green broke 4yos coming out of the breeders for $25k to $30k. Move great, not a dumb size, right type.
$30k is a great budget; here I was beating the bushes trying to find the ingredients to an eventual competitive rated horse for $10k or less (and I did).
For $30k you really ought to be able to find a nice moving, developable green broke 4yo!!!
And then when it’s carting an ammy around for a ribbon BY ALL MEANS charge six figures for it but do not try to explain to me you need to spend $75-100k on a barely started 4yo.
Jesus.
On the other hand, if you really want to spend $100k on a nice moving, started o/f 4yo, by all means, give me a phonecall and three months to find you just the right one.
:lol::lol::lol:
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Aren’t you proud of yourself? Being “long listed on the Olympic team” means literally nothing. That is an old bit of vanity that sketchy trainers and brokers recycle in an attempt to impress ignorant clients. The Olympic short list is an impressive accomplishment - however, even these persons need to declare their intent to participate (and not every rider does). In other words, the most recent USET eight person short list is actually the eight highest-rated riders with declared intent. For example, Kent Farrington was NOT named to the most recent USET short list…because he did not declare his intent to participate. For reference, please see:
https://www.uset.org/update-us-eques…-jumping-team/
The “long list” - such as it even officially exists - is a compendium of many, many, many riders who indicate potential intent and have competed in a qualifying event. It is NOT remotely indicative of any level of accomplishment or skill. Truly, compete in a qualifying event, declare your intent, and you, too, can land on the “long list.” Bravo!!!
Again, more to the point, your comment - beyond self-adulation and promotion - does nothing to advance the actual topic of conversation. Congratulations - you spent $8,500 on a horse. How is that remotely germane to this thread? Was your $8,500 horse a champion hunter at Devon or Indoors? If not, then why the comment?
Getting “long listed” is the braggadocio of dozens of hacks and unscrupulous trainers. I would venture to say that there are literally hundreds of persons on this same forum who could be similarly “long listed” if they were remotely inclined toward an exercise in self-congratulatory futility.
As to the balance of your post, why is it irreconcilable or incongruent for a trainer to BOTH encourage a client to acquire a very nice (and potentially expensive) horse AND teach the client to be exceptional horsemen? It’s been said here before and bears repeating, many of the people about whom this thread was started are among the best riders and horsemen in our sport.
P.S. Google “USET olympic long list” if you want to see how many times this same silly - and repeatedly debunked - claim comes up on this forum.
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Can i go back to my previous question: Are these horses actually for sale? How much do they cost? Then, we can settle this matter?
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Easy, nowhere did I say 75k for an barely broke 4 y.o…
You are going to have to forgive that I need go back in the thread and seek out exactly what this poster was looking for, and then make sure I’m not confusing it for another poster, and then make sure it’s is actually the poster you are talking about. For the sake of conversation, I threw out some situations in which it is not moronic to spend close to 6 figs on a horse that is probably closer to 6 and will be ready for an amateur to be successful with it before the apocalypse or $40,000 in training, board & show bills are incurred; whichever comes first. How that became a green-broke 4 y.o. is beyond me but again, maybe that is what the poster stated she wanted and my eidetic memory failed me. On that note, quilting up a blanket statement based on my eidetic memory is never advised.
There’s always pitchforks about this kind of stuff and then PSST PSST ASIDE yeah I’d totally do it…
And I don’t know what to say RAYers, some amateurs just want to show up and enjoy their barn life and not go all blood/sweat/tears in this sport. They certainly don’t have ambitions to go to the Olympics on a horse of any price tag, they have like max 4 hours a week to take a break from work/life/hubby/kids and learn how to not die on weekends. It is what it is. It is not ALL there is.
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Oh wow. I have nothing to add except that brand new posters think meup and RAyers are clearly hacks who don’t know what they talk about :lol:
@McAngie you might want to do a post search on RAyers.
@dags I am pretty sure Meup was responding to the poster that said you have to spend six figures on a 4yo and one cannot possibly make a mid to high five figure horse into a six figure horse.
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Dags, I wasn’t fighting w you, I was directing my comments at the poster who insisted $75k was the floor buy in for a 4yo and the commenter who couldn’t find anything more than “very green and a lot of work” for $100k. Of course there arw people who want to spend six figures to have life be easy, but that (again) is not “very young very green and needs a lot of work.”
Sure, people will list their horse for $100k that they bought for $30k six months ago. Psst psst I would do it etc etc.
Ergo, that same $100k horse was $30k six months ago when it was very green and needed a lot of work.
And, to whoever was trying to say being long listed means nothing, being long listed for the Olympic team is worth a hell of a lot more than needing to spend $100k to make it around the 3’ adult amateur hunters.
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With due respect, I don’t know if you or your fellow, more experienced posters are hacks. I don’t believe that posting repeatedly on this site makes anyone particularly qualified or credentialed.
I do think that you are not being responsive to the question. I think that you can understand how your comment risks being perceived as slightly “Don’t you know who I am?!” in nature.
I hope that you will agree that it is possible to be a first-time contributor to this forum, and also be a very experienced horse person. This topic intrigued me sufficiently to register, and I have tried to honor the topic by staying on point. I am truly interested in the costs of the high-end, top of the market hunters. It is both a curiosity for me, and also a topic of competitive interest. I would hope that the more experienced persons on this forum would lend their insight and experiences…not use this forum to grandstand or present their credentials. The whole “long listed for the Olympic team” is pure silliness. At its best, it is vanity. At its worst, it is extremely misleading and lacks integrity.
RAyers comment reminded me of that person (whom, unfortunately, most of all of us know) who went to Harvard and, within five minutes of meeting said person, let’s you casually know that they went to Harvard. Except in the case of RAyers, the more appropriate comparison would be with a person who APPLIED to Harvard and then went around town speaking as if he had actually commenced with honors!
I also think that comparing a $8,500 horse from a potentially different discipline and from a potentially different era to the best hunters of today is a false equivalence. For example, comparing a $8,500 event horse from the 1980s with the top hunters of today is just plain ridiculous in terms of the cost factors associated with the pursuit of the highest levels of the respective disciplines at those times.
I keep going back to my original question (and, I think, the question originally posed): What does an “elite” hunter cost nowadays? The question isn’t, “Can you import a green horse and make it up to be one of the best?” The question isn’t, “Has the hunter market for elite horses spun out of control?” The question isn’t, “Can you import a young horse for $30,000?” The question isn’t, “Has anyone in the history of our sport purchased a horse for $50,000 and then sold it for $600,000?”
Can anyone actually respond to the original question with some qualified knowledge or insight? Please?
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Since apparently we’re including qualifications with our posts, just going to throw mine out there as “have done hunters on the A circuit, have not done them at this level, and the 2 times I went to any of the shows considered part of Indoors, it was in the jumpers and I rode like a drunk lemur learning the Cotton Eyed Joe. Have other experience irrelevant to this discussion. And now basically don’t ride.”
With that established, honestly, 5-700k for a hunter that’s going to win you everything at the very top shows wouldn’t surprise me. But, OP, I think there are plenty of horses that can compete at that level, and get some ribbons, and get some nice ribbons, who were purchased for significantly less than that. To buy a horse currently winning at those shows at that level, yeah, it’s going to be super expensive. But I think the point others were trying to get at is that a good riding amateur can get a horse that’s more affordable for mere mortals who can’t shell out 6-figures on the regular (or ever), it’s just going to take a lot more time and elbow grease to get that horse to that point, and it may/not be able to win against the Catch Mes of the world.
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Oh, bless your heart, honey. I am damn proud of what I have done!! I’m glad that I have my COTH article clippings (from when it was a real published magazine)that include a few A/O hunter championships that remind me that you have shown me that you have very little experience and age in this industry. FYI, I was in high school before Farrington was born.
The business model is off the rails. Dags is totally right in what she wishes, but she should not have to be a multi-millionaire to be eligible to play at the highest levels, should she so wish. This is what other posters seem to believe however.
How do i arrive at my perspective? Well, given that my mentors and trainers and family members rode for the US team (one mentor was the first woman to ever compete at the National 3-day in 57, a family member rode in the World Cup in 84 and Nations cup 8 years ago, my one of my coaches was on the US team in Barcelona, and another coach judged dressage in Hong Kong, while yet another judged at the recent World Cup in N.C.), I get to see how the world has changed from when I played (although I still like to play).
As for long listing, you had to have a competition record to make the long list, so there is a record of what I’ve done, which includes placing at several FEI competitions.
i absolutely agree with meupatdoes and supershorty fore their perspective. And we don’t always agree.
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McAngie, you are the one telling people bring long listed for the Olympics isn’t worth anything.
And, if the question is “Has the market in the hunters gone out of control,” the question IS ALSO “can people still.make up decent rated horses without spending $100+k on them as youngsters.” And the answer is absolutely yes they can.
OP was lamenting she was nearly in tears to learn that a top winning Derby horse would be priced at $750k+, as if that would somehow price OP out of her objectives. I’m sorry, is OP or anyone else in this thread trying to beat Jen Alfano and Scott Stewart in the international hunter derbies???!!
First of all, the VAST MAJORITY of the ammy market is not needing the next finished Derby horse that can give Jersey Boy a run for his money.
The VAST MAJORITY of the market can invest 20-30k with a decent honest trainer and do fine for themselves at the 2’6" - 3’, and possibly the extra good ammys will do the 3’6". And they can then sell their finished investment for $75k to $200k.
If you want to show up on weekends and have your horse ready to walk in the ring for a ribbon in your first month of ownership, yes you will have to spend $75k to $350k depending on what height and what ring you intend to be immediately competitive in. But for normal ammys who are willing to do just a little more work, no, the fact that a horse that can make Scott Stewart have to work for his ribbon in the hunter derbies will be $750k+ does not price them out of their end of the sport.
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I literally said I have nothing to add. Yes I’m sure hunters at the top can sell for close to or at 750k. Many people have answered the question in my opinion. Sorry the thread didn’t stay on topic exactly for you.
For all further posts McAngie has requested that you not comment unless you’re qualified. Whatever that means.
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You are obviously a very important person in your own mind. Thank you for listing the accomplishments of many people associated with you. What you have still failed to do with your perspective is meaningfully contribute input to the question at hand.
Do you have anything meaningful to contribute to this post?
I think many of us have similarly credentialed trainers, coaches, and mentors. I suspect most of us have numerous clippings from the Chronicle. I do, too. I don’t think they grant me unique authority. They’re nice to have. You’re not special. At a certain level, that’s just how it is. I agree that the world has changed massively since many of us started riding - which is one of the reasons why I am so curious as to cost factors associated with the current state of play.
As for your family members, well, it must be very cold in the shadow of their more talented, accomplished DNA.
Again, are you able to respond to this original question? For the love of all things decent and holy, can someone please attempt to respond to the original question?
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Are you capable of actually reading? Several, very well informed posters have answered your question. Or do you just prefer to remain ignorant?
And I’m quite proud of my brothers!!
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I don’t believe that the word “qualified” is a particular challenge term to comprehend. It simply means that I would appreciate insight, intelligence or information from someone who actually knows the recent transaction value (or offering price) of one of today’s top hunters.
You are intentionally misstating my words in an attempt to corral the conversation. It is a textbook bullying tactic. I think it precious that you are trying to interpret plain-speak for the sake of we plebian, newbie users. My perception is that a handful of long time contributors somehow think they should be afforded special latitude in their ability to weigh-in with off topic soliloquy. I don’t think it unreasonable to ask people to focus on the topic - or start another post for their own matters of personal concern.
I’ve said my piece. The stage is yours. I’ll sign-off now and check back in the hopes of gaining the information that the original poster was seeking. Thank you.
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