Cost of Veterinary Care - a Vent

[rugbygirl]

I will be the person there paying $5000 for a stray kitten if the bill is based in reality

As the owner in that situation, you are one of the worst possible judges of how realistic the bill is. Yes, I support your right to ask for details on every line item of a bill…but your knowledge of prescription medications, as evidenced here, proves that you really probably should not be passing judgment on the actual costs to the vet. Your insistence that assessment is not required…well, I disagree wholeheartedly with you, and so do the professional associations that Veterinarians answer to.

Finally, you capped it all off with the classic doctors kill more people than blah, blah, blah which shows your complete lack of respect for the skillset…and guarantees that if a veterinarian DOESNT go completely by-the-book with you, theyll end up in court.

[Justmyluck]

Good for you, and from this entire thread how many people do you think do the required number of fecals a year for their animals?

The veterinarian profession is going down a great road of discovery, we are able to do so much more for our animals now. The problem is the fact that few owners want to provide the gold standard of care and actually benefit from these discoveries.

If these wonderful veterinarians that charge a whopping $20 for a substandard neuter, were performing the same level of care for a human. They would be in jail and in financial ruin.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;7385776]
I’m really NOT confused. There is a manufacturer’s markup, and the vet’s office or dispensary is also allowed to tack on additional fees, and depending on the jurisdiction, those fees can vary wildly. The markup paid by the VET’S office is also variable, depending on the dispensary structure that they are using and the volumes that they purchase. Human prescription drugs are even more complicated. Your understanding of drug distribution is flawed, which may be why you’re so annoyed about this issue.

I was not a vet tech.

And I agree with Justmyluck. At some point, if you really think that you’re being unfairly cheated by “the system”…then treat your animals yourself. Oh. Right. You don’t know how to make dewormer. Hmm. Maybe you ought to just be content handing over your money to people who ARE competent, and include vet costs in your household budget. BEFORE you obtain pets.[/QUOTE]

See, there you go with that “your household budget” thing. What do you know about my household or whether I even have a budget? As for the remainder of your post, it’s even worse. Too bad these discussion disintegrate into this kind of drivel.

[rugbygirl]

As opposed to stimulating discussions about how you think veterinarians should deviate from their codes of practice so that you can keep drugs on hand? And administer them to whatever animal you want?

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;7385807]
As the owner in that situation, you are one of the worst possible judges of how realistic the bill is. Yes, I support your right to ask for details on every line item of a bill…but your knowledge of prescription medications, as evidenced here, proves that you really probably should not be passing judgment on the actual costs to the vet. Your insistence that assessment is not required…well, I disagree wholeheartedly with you, and so do the professional associations that Veterinarians answer to.

Finally, you capped it all off with the classic doctors kill more people than blah, blah, blah which shows your complete lack of respect for the skillset…and guarantees that if a veterinarian DOESNT go completely by-the-book with you, theyll end up in court.[/QUOTE]

Nope, I had the estimate reviewed, had the exact surgery done for half the cost by a very competent vet.

I never said assessment is not required - where do you get this stuff? Because I said someone should be able to give a Dronsat pill to their own cat when they see tapes? That’s not the same as determining the need for surgery. You really do have to be able to make such distinctions.

The vet will end up in court? Really? And what are the damages a vet is facing if he kills my beloved cat or dog? Look that one up if you don’t know. Virtually nothing is the answer.

As for the statement that fewer drugs and simple tests should be by prescription only, my response about doctors was responding to the condescending statement that lay people, given some freedom, will kill themselves and their pets in large part because they are hypochondriacs. You are misrepresenting what I said, of course.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=rugbygirl;7385831]
As opposed to stimulating discussions about how you think veterinarians should deviate from their codes of practice so that you can keep drugs on hand? And administer them to whatever animal you want?[/QUOTE]

I never sais anything remotely close to that.

[rugbygirl]

Arguing with you is probably pointless…but

I never said assessment is not required - where do you get this stuff? Because I said someone should be able to give a Dronsat pill to their own cat when they see tapes?

My comment about assessment WAS ABOUT THE DEWORMER. You think that this deworming product should be available for owners to administer without the vet examining the animal. You said so directly. IE: you think that owners are entitled to prescription drugs without the vet ASSESSING the animal.

That comment had nothing to do with surgery, but I apologize if that wasn’t clear.

[Beaver_Breeze]

This thread makes me appreciate the wonderful small animal vets I use.

[SarahKing]

[QUOTE=kbennett322;7385418]
{SNIP}

At our last vist - they tried to upsell me on senior pet bloodwork when i had done a full panel less than 6 mos. before (see above list of tests), {SNIP}[/QUOTE]

Because pets age much faster than humans. If you were trying to manage a complicated condition in a human, bloodwork would be required at least yearly. Blood values can change drastically very quickly.

[Casey09]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7385844]
The vet will end up in court? Really? And what are the damages a vet is facing if he kills my beloved cat or dog? Look that one up if you don’t know. Virtually nothing is the answer.[/QUOTE]

It may not just be about lawsuits. I would assume that if a vet is caught doing certain things, the licensing board can revoke his or her license as can happen in other professions. I am honestly note sure what types of circumstances would be necessary, but I would presume that there are certain requirements that a veterinarian examine an animal before dispensing medication. I think that a lot of times people assume that a veterinarian is doing something just to “rip people off” when really the veterinarian is just trying to follow proper procedures. Vets have also had previous experiences, just like everyone else. Sometimes people try home treatments and remedies for way too long and do not involve a vet when they really need to, causing needless animal suffering. I am not saying that all clients are like that, but I can understand how a vet that has seen that tries to make sure that any animal with a symptom visits the office for a proper assessment.

[Coyoteco]

[QUOTE=Casey09;7386332]
It may not just be about lawsuits. I would assume that if a vet is caught doing certain things, the licensing board can revoke his or her license as can happen in other professions. I am honestly note sure what types of circumstances would be necessary, but I would presume that there are certain requirements that a veterinarian examine an animal before dispensing medication. I think that a lot of times people assume that a veterinarian is doing something just to “rip people off” when really the veterinarian is just trying to follow proper procedures. Vets have also had previous experiences, just like everyone else. Sometimes people try home treatments and remedies for way too long and do not involve a vet when they really need to, causing needless animal suffering. I am not saying that all clients are like that, but I can understand how a vet that has seen that tries to make sure that any animal with a symptom visits the office for a proper assessment.[/QUOTE]

My quoted language was a response to a “vet being taken to court” and that’s all I was responding to. Vets are like everyone else: there are good ones and there are bad ones. The cited case was about someone who wanted Dontral or something to treat tape worms in a healthy cat. $165.00 to get that done. Are you saying that had she used a non-prescription medication that she would have been “causing needless animal suffering” of an animal - which, btw, is a criminal offense?
It is a very slippery slope to use the “causing needless animal suffering” in such a case.

[Casey09]

Coyoteco,
I am not saying that using a generic causes needless suffering. It’s an endless series of “what ifs.” I am not saying that this is the case with that poster, but what if a vet started dispensing tapeworm medication based on a telephone conversation with a client, and the animal didn’t have tapeworms at all? And what if a simple fecal exam would have told the vet to look elsewhere, and the tapeworm medication caused additional harm? I don’t know if that is possible as I don’t have a medical background. I just think that in general, vets want to see an animal before prescribing medication just to make sure that the animal is in good condition and that the medication that the owner is asking for is, in fact, what the animal needs.

[Anne]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7385844]

The vet will end up in court? Really? And what are the damages a vet is facing if he kills my beloved cat or dog? Look that one up if you don’t know. Virtually nothing is the answer. [/QUOTE]

Yes, really. While it is true that at least at present in the US a pet is considered property, every decent law school in this country has an “Animal Law” elective and there are many groups working diligently to change the legal status of animals to allow for “pain and suffering” damages, which will dramatically alter the face of our profession.

In addition, there is the matter of each state veterinary board. The board has the power to revoke my license, thus forever rendering me unable to make a living and unable to pay back my student loans. So no, I’m not willing to dispense Droncit for your 14 cats I haven’t seen within the past year, or dispense a bottle of Dormosedan for you to keep in your tack room. License preservation is pretty important to most of us.

[Anne]

For me to prescribe a drug, the law requires a valid veterinary client-patient relationship. In most cases, that means that I have done a physical exam on the patient within the last year and consulted with the owner on the issue for which the medication is being prescribed. For example, even if I saw Fluffy last week for her annual physical exam and vaccines, if you find a tapeworm today, and we didn’t talk about tapeworms last week, I need to see Fluffy again before I prescribe medication. That’s the law.

[Coyoteco]

Anne, do you seriously think I’m going to sue you over your malpractice resulting in the death of my cat or dog that has no monetary value. In your disagreement with you, you are agreeing with me. The damages are limited to the value of my animal that you kill by your malpractice.

Licensing boards don’t seem to be effective at all in my area so they are no threat to vets or help to owners.

Now what you say the law is in your post and how you interpret it are very different. I don’t know what the law is, but it is clear that you are inconsistent in your recitation of the law and interpretation of the law.

If you think that it will cost your patient’s owner $165 to give it one simple tape worm pill, why not just suggest that the patient look at PetsMart for an appropriate tapeworm wormer for $8 or Amazon for $3, or use another wormer altogether?

If it requires a full vet visit and exam to give a tapeworm pill, why can a lepto vaccination be given by a vet tech?

Are you as a profession simply trying to make sure that every animal is denied any routine maintenance unless the owner pays for a complete physical at least once per year and on your example several times per year?

Personally, I think the vet medicine world is in a place to become a real benefit to animals by providing fantastic life-saving and life-enhancing advances. I think the industry is in the process of damaging those great and exciting strides by doing things like requiring a 2nd exam in a week to sell a wormer tablet.
And just for the record I don’t have 14 cats:) and wonder why you pulled a huge number like that to use as an example.

[shayaalliard]

the years in the pet store we had a vet “on staff” who provided basic prescription meds in bulk. Diagnosis, treatment, dosing all fell to me. (probably as illegal as hell, huh?) I can run sub q fluids, shots, albon, droncit, clavamox, amoxi drops, parvo treatments, goodwinol for mange, etc etc etc in my sleep.

My current vet respects that 80% of the time I know what the heck I;m talking about- and I respect that I need her for the other 20%. I drive an hour to her because of that. I restrain my own guys for exams, give my own shots/wormings, but they get eyes on with her once a year anyway, so that when I call and say “so and so is sick, these are her vitals”, they believe me, and they get us in immediately. Worth the exam fees once a year- at 35 bucks each that’s cheap insurance.

I used a vet before her who got offended when I called and said- that cat has a URI, or the dog has kennel cough or whatever. THEY would be the decider about THAT- and I was always right…left that vet the day they refused to let me hold my kitty as she was PTS. She fought for 5 minutes scared on the cold table, and I was only PERMITTED to talk to her, not touch. Bye bye vet.

[Coyoteco]

Did you get a chance to read Spotteddrafter’s post - number 92 in this thread?

Your approach sounds reasonable, but Anne wouldn’t do that as she would require an additional exam even if she had seen the cat two weeks before for a complete physical because that’s the way she interprets her professional ethical requirements.

[spotteddrafter]

[QUOTE=Coyoteco;7386527]
Did you get a chance to read Spotteddrafter’s post - number 92 in this thread? [/QUOTE]

My point in my post was that I got the EXACT same meds from my horse vet (who does see small animals in his clinic one day a week) for half the price of my small vet. I get that it’s a prescription med, but charging me for an “extended” office visit AND charging me so much for the meds? That’s wrong, and I said something about it to them (nicely) while I was there.

Here’s another example. I had a stray, extremely malnourished female kitty show up at my backdoor - she needed immediate intervention with foods and a home or she would’ve died. At the time I had 3 indoor-only kitties and so I isolated her in a room of her own, with strict handwashing/clothes changing/etc and called the vet. I brought her in and they did a feline leuk/aids test, then u/s her belly to see if pregnant. That visit was $80. Seemed pretty reasonable to me. They then quoted me another $350 for spay, first set of shots, and of course blood work before anesthesia. Um, what? I instead called one of our local, wonderful animal adoption places and asked for a quote for the same services. Do you know what they did? I brought her in and they spayed her AND gave her all of her shots for a grand total of $63. Who do you think I had take care of this cat?

Look, I respect that the vet has the right to charge whatever she wants but she better respect that I have the right to walk out the door. I just don’t get the guilt trips, the constant pressure to add on, the phone calls…it’s seriously as bad as shopping for a car at this point.

[Fessy_s_Mom]

Wonderfully put spotteddrafter. :yes:

[Fessy_s_Mom]

I have another thread running about a stray dog we’ve decided to keep. It would have been $400 anyway to get this dog neutered at my old vet clinic in MA. The quote I got from my new vet? $63 plus $38 for pre-surgery bloodwork and a rabies vaccination. :eek:

Next on my list will be getting my other Pomeranian’s teeth done that was quoted at over $600 at my old vet. Even at the animal shelter clinic the quote was $400. Can’t wait to hear the quote for that one from my new vet.

And I’m truly sorry if I have offended any vets on here. I just don’t understand the huge disparity in prices for veterinary services depending on where you live. You KNOW my new vet is making money, so how can they charge so little compared to my old vet? And conversely, how does my old vet justify their huge rates? My new vet certainly isn’t skimping in the facilities department - check out their website - http://hartlandanimalhospital.com/