[QUOTE=Molly Sorge;7630891]
I’d encourage everyone interested in this article to also read the Commentary in this issue, which addresses Olivia’s Forum.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Interesting commentary. This is a sport. Not life and death. And in the ultimate scheme of things, not really all that important. The horse is where we should be focusing, and the fact that this issue is being raised can only be a good thing.
Add to that the “rental” mentality that is becoming more and more common in the show world today. Everybody wants to lease, not own. Use the horse and send it back. Horse is getting sore? Medicate and keep going- send the horse back. Not your problem.
[QUOTE=Jsalem;7631201]
Add to that the “rental” mentality that is becoming more and more common in the show world today. Everybody wants to lease, not own. Use the horse and send it back. Horse is getting sore? Medicate and keep going- send the horse back. Not your problem.[/QUOTE]
And part of that is the astronomical cost of a good mount. The people that own them are raking in the money in lease fees each year. 15%-30% of the value on a yearly basis? Pretty good money if the horse stays sounds.
And frankly, not many people can afford to buy a horse of that caliber outright, especially one that won’t win any money back to contribute to it’s expenses. Just like the Pony article points out - they cost the price of a house!
I make a point of watching at least one big eq final per year.
In recent years, I’ve considered the sheer volume of horsepower required to keep all those riders suitably mounted.
By suitable, I mean able-bodied, sound, capable horses.
At some point, demand begins to exceed supply…both within barns and for the sport overall.
And the price of a good eq horse is…?
No wonder that so many riders (and those who pay their bills) are taught that routine medications and injections are all about ‘kindness,’ rather than a compromise to ensure continued practice and performance opportunities.
Stopping to ask where to draw a line between that sort of kindness and abuse is not a bad thing no matter who is posing the question.
[QUOTE=michaelwatkins;7630710]
I don’t know what “character assignation” is, but I do know what character assassination is, and that is what Champ did in her article. You don’t really think that the people she writes about don’t care about the horses, I am sure. Those pros wouldn’t stay in business if they couldn’t keep the horses safe and sound. The fact that the COTH published an article like this by a 16 year old who has burned bridges and can’t pay for horses or trainers was truly poor judgment. And no thinking person would really believe this kid is not going to compete in equitation any longer simply because the equitation horses are " overused". Really? And jumpers and hunters aren’t? I
normally like the COTH, but have enough info in this instance to wonder what they were smoking when they agreed to publish [this] article [edit][/QUOTE] Wow. Just wow. You are, presumably, an adult with a daughter who rides, based on previous posts. And you feel necessary to air a teenager’s dirty laundry on a public forum? Which, considering no 16-year old actually has the means to pay horse show bills, is her parent’s dirty laundry.
I don’t know the kid, but the chip on your shoulder is very evident. I’ll put it plainly for you- the most talented kids get the free rides from trainers. The ones who are not have to pay.
Stay classy.
[QUOTE=M. O’Connor;7631227]
No wonder that so many riders (and those who pay their bills) are taught that routine medications and injections are all about ‘kindness,’ rather than a compromise to ensure continued practice and performance opportunities.
Stopping to ask where to draw a line between that sort of kindness and abuse is not a bad thing no matter who is posing the question.[/QUOTE]
THIS!!! Very well said.
I certainly don’t think some overuse their animals or use whatever it takes to keep them going with no regard for the horse/Pony’s future.
I KNOW they do. Some people use horses strictly to advance themselves or their business and don’t give a rats hinny about the animal as anything but a means to an end. I’ve seen it, so has anybody who pays attention to what goes on in the barns.
Somebody has to speak up. Attacking the speaker not only comes off as sour grapes, it does not change the fact she has a point. A very good point.
[QUOTE=Thoroughbred1201;7631219]
And part of that is the astronomical cost of a good mount. The people that own them are raking in the money in lease fees each year. 15%-30% of the value on a yearly basis? Pretty good money if the horse stays sounds.
And frankly, not many people can afford to buy a horse of that caliber outright, especially one that won’t win any money back to contribute to it’s expenses. Just like the Pony article points out - they cost the price of a house![/QUOTE]
If you lease the horse out by the final or big show you can pull in more than 30% of the value of the horse per year.
I too generally attend multiple finals/ regionals each fall and marvel at the quality and quantity of the horses.
In regards to the whole, “leasing a horse out year after year/ final after final” I feel like these are the owners who will never sit on these horses or have outgrown them and instead of selling them, prefer to keep them, cost free, and get a regular return on them. They’re basically pimping these horses out. Everytime the horse blinks, someone new is riding him; and while he’s out putting wear and tear on his body and turning tricks, his “owner” is sitting pretty and getting paid. Granted, there are times when leasing is plenty appropiate. I work and live 3hrs away from my barn and leased my horse out to a sweet little girl because I didn’t want him to become a pasture ornament at 11 years old. I didn’t sell him because I still plan on returning to the ring with him once I relocate back out that way. The girl just came off of ponies and is showing in the 2’6, which is a nice break for him from the 3’3 and 3’6. But those poor horses that just get passed around, and never have real consistency in their lives, I feel badly for them.
[QUOTE=michaelwatkins;7630630]
and fails to mention that the horse she was riding ( for free!) in the USET was for sale. [/QUOTE]
So your point is that sales horses can be ridden in shows seven weeks in a row and that is fine?
And the kids who have several six figure horses of their own and could not even put a blanket on their horse if their life depended on it are not spoiled? Do you even know this girl you are attacking? A kid who has been through EAP four times generally does not fall into the category of spoiled. Indeed, most catch riders are catch riders because they work very hard.
I have no idea how this article translates in your eyes into “My parents should not pay their bills.” Based upon hearsay and gossip - which is just so reliable in the horse world (sarcasm) - you believe that it is alright for a horse to attend seven major shows in seven weeks as long as someone is current on their bills and paying for it.
Quite frankly, it seems that the point you are making is that horses are commodities which can be used in any fashion whatsoever provided they are paid for. If that is your viewpoint, just say it. After all, horses are goods under the Uniform Commercial Code.
I would not agree with that argument because it fails to acknowledge our moral obligation to these wonderful animals but it would be a far more logical argument than an ad hominem attack on a young girl and her family simply because her views - obviously - are different from yours.
[QUOTE=dish face;7631656]
In regards to the whole, “leasing a horse out year after year/ final after final” I feel like these are the owners who will never sit on these horses or have outgrown them and instead of selling them, prefer to keep them, cost free, and get a regular return on them. They’re basically pimping these horses out. Everytime the horse blinks, someone new is riding him; and while he’s out putting wear and tear on his body and turning tricks, his “owner” is sitting pretty and getting paid. Granted, there are times when leasing is plenty appropiate. I work and live 3hrs away from my barn and leased my horse out to a sweet little girl because I didn’t want him to become a pasture ornament at 11 years old. I didn’t sell him because I still plan on returning to the ring with him once I relocate back out that way. The girl just came off of ponies and is showing in the 2’6, which is a nice break for him from the 3’3 and 3’6. But those poor horses that just get passed around, and never have real consistency in their lives, I feel badly for them.[/QUOTE]
They often stay in-barn, in-program and I would dispute that their lives lack consistency (or that horses necessarily need the same rider year after year to be happy).
That is separate and apart from whether the amount of work they do is appropriate, but in a vacuum I don’t really see leasing as an issue. Juniors do age out and there’s a finite time one needs a big eq horse. If the horse isn’t suffering, what’s wrong with a rider change? Horses get new riders in the hunters and jumpers all the time too. Sometimes show by show.
We’ve removed some accusations and personal commentary to keep the thread on track and within our posting guidelines.
Thanks!
Mod 1
IMO as a pretty much retired owner I feel a sense of horses are a “disposable commodity” from the above article and threads. I also feel very sad for an industry that lets something like the happen ( parents in severe debt and everyone knows about it. Not a sport anymore just a business. Such a difference from the Nancy Dillon article.
It sounds to me that she has been blessed with natural talent, combined it with hard work and has received a ton of opportunities. I am impressed that at her age and in the mix of all of it, she could take a 30,000 foot view and question the business. Good for her.
[QUOTE=dish face;7631656]
In regards to the whole, “leasing a horse out year after year/ final after final” I feel like these are the owners who will never sit on these horses or have outgrown them and instead of selling them, prefer to keep them, cost free, and get a regular return on them. They’re basically pimping these horses out. Everytime the horse blinks, someone new is riding him; and while he’s out putting wear and tear on his body and turning tricks, his “owner” is sitting pretty and getting paid.[/QUOTE] What a strange way of looking at this. They owner probably has a giant initial investment plus years of training/showing/shoeing/vet/board, and leasing allows them to recoup some of that. There is a huge amount of risk involved in leasing a high dollar horse- if they break while on lease, you can bet as soon as the lease is over (or even before) they are going to come back to you, and it is on you for care/rehab until they are back, or paying field board for the rest of their lives if they don’t come back.
Are people just supposed to hang on to horses after they’ve outgrown them or moved on to another horse? Do you prefer that they are sold on? How is leasing any worse than a lesson horse’s job? Or having different catch riders show in the pro division? Or a half-lease situation where two people ride plus trainers and assistants plus whatever kid is available to hack them on their easy days?
I have a jr/ao jumper on lease. He’s not my favorite ride, and I could sell him, but he’s quirky and I worry what would happen to him if he didn’t go to the right trainer. He’s in a good program with a great kid leasing him, and hopefully she will continue to do so. She rides him, her sister rides him, the trainer rides him, her two assistants ride him. He doesn’t care who rides him as long as they are kind and reasonable. I’ll probably own him for the rest of his life, and he’ll be leased for as long as he is useful. Which may be a year, may be 10 years, but I doubt I will EVER recoup what I put into him from lease fees.
The horse in question didn’t show 7 weeks straight, with travel. A large part of the problem with the article are the huge inaccuracies, and the jabs at the people who were helping Ms. Champ. The horse Ms. Champ rode in the ASPCA was provided to her at no charge by its new owner. That person now undoubtedly regrets loaning what she thought was a nice deserving 16- year old a wonderful horse that the teenager has now denigrated as being " dull" and overused by her last ride on it. I completely agree that overusing horses certainly can and does occur. It didn’t occur in this case. The sour grapes are Ms. Champ’s. When the horse she had been loaned was no longer available for free, this article was the result. And she blames not only the horse’s owner for" allowing" this alleged abuse, but she also not- so-subtly attacks the trainers who helped her. Her reputation is not good, but it is of her own making. And yes, maybe it is her parents’ issue that substantial bills are not paid but surely that didn’t escape her attention. To write an inaccurate article that is a thinly veiled attack on the people who tried to help her, despite her circumstances, is just wrong. Enough said. I know the people involved and think when unfairness occurs you need to speak up.
I would be appalled if I loaned a horse to a what I thought was a deserving kid and she put me down in an article for all to see afterwards. Personally it sounds like sour grapes that she isn’t being handed opportunities on nice horses. She has to ride the difficult ones now and it hasn’t been going her way.
I was taught at an early age to never burn your bridges. There were jobs that I left that I hated and I wanted to “tell all!” but I did not because you never know when it will come and bite you in the butt in the future.
Equitation horses do work hard. but so do eventing horses. There are people that abuse the horses and overwork them, but there are trainers out there that really care about the animals and their students. I know because I am training with one of them! She is sooo dedicated to this sport, that to taint all equitation horses with the same brush is not fair!
Even if these horses were abused, this young girl, who may be young, knew better than to use them if it really was abusive. You don’t get to the top of this sport being a dummy. She is no innocent kid. She knew what she was doing and she wanted it while the winning was good. and now its not so good anymore. I don’t think its right to bash someone who gave you a leg up in the sport. If it was that bad, why did you accept the goodies?
[QUOTE=michaelwatkins;7632243]
The horse in question didn’t show 7 weeks straight, with travel. A large part of the problem with the article are the huge inaccuracies, and the jabs at the people who were helping Ms. Champ. The horse Ms. Champ rode in the ASPCA was provided to her at no charge by its new owner. That person now undoubtedly regrets loaning what she thought was a nice deserving 16- year old a wonderful horse that the teenager has now denigrated as being " dull" and overused by her last ride on it. I completely agree that overusing horses certainly can and does occur. It didn’t occur in this case. The sour grapes are Ms. Champ’s. When the horse she had been loaned was no longer available for free, this article was the result. And she blames not only the horse’s owner for" allowing" this alleged abuse, but she also not- so-subtly attacks the trainers who helped her. Her reputation is not good, but it is of her own making. And yes, maybe it is her parents’ issue that substantial bills are not paid but surely that didn’t escape her attention. To write an inaccurate article that is a thinly veiled attack on the people who tried to help her, despite her circumstances, is just wrong. Enough said. I know the people involved and think when unfairness occurs you need to speak up.[/QUOTE]
For goodness sake, do you really need to take a jab at her financial situation every time. How do you even know “the facts” unless you are a barn manager, the trainers in question or her parents you need to keep what you know to yourself. Any trainer that wants to speak about finances with other clients or other trainers is not worth a hill of beans in my opinion. Even if this has been filed in court the correct response from said trainers is it’s in the hands of the court now.
You need to really watch what you say in a public forum and not air the dirty laundry that is not your concern. And if said “trainers” are sharing this with others that are neither an accountant or lawyer, imagine what they are sharing about your pocketbook, and problems.
She very much so could be generalizing. But attacking a 16 year old when you are an adult is gross. Discuss what she said not her specific situation. If you are associating with the trainer on question you need to realize your making them look bad and you are making yourself look even worse
I do not know the kid or the situation, but sometimes you do things that you think are wrong or go along with it because no one else is speaking out. I am sure there are two sides to the story and the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe the whole experience changed her outlook on things and she wants to change it and regrets some of her past choices to go along with it? So if these people (owners and trainers) were doing these things, even if they helped her why shouldn’t she call them out? Should it be ignored the wrongs they have done just because they helped her with other things?
Like I said I don’t personally know this story, but I do know I have seen things and have gone along with things that I knew were wrong, but didn’t know what to do about it, and even some things that maybe I didn’t think were so bad at the time but looking back I know were wrong too. And regardless of this situation we all know these things are all too common.
[QUOTE=Show boots;7633029]
For goodness sake, do you really need to take a jab at her financial situation every time. How do you even know “the facts” unless you are a barn manager, the trainers in question or her parents you need to keep what you know to yourself. Any trainer that wants to speak about finances with other clients or other trainers is not worth a hill of beans in my opinion. Even if this has been filed in court the correct response from said trainers is it’s in the hands of the court now.
You need to really watch what you say in a public forum and not air the dirty laundry that is not your concern. And if said “trainers” are sharing this with others that are neither an accountant or lawyer, imagine what they are sharing about your pocketbook, and problems.
She very much so could be generalizing. But attacking a 16 year old when you are an adult is gross. Discuss what she said not her specific situation. If you are associating with the trainer on question you need to realize your making them look bad and you are making yourself look even worse[/QUOTE]
Pretty much agree with this. It’s distasteful to go after a 16 year old almost nobody on this board knows up close and personal and assuming we are all “on the inside” and know who the hell you are talking about owner, trainer and horse wise. Most don’t outside of seeing the girl ride.
Whats your beef with her you need to launch a personal attack worthy of the meanest girls in high school? She beat you or get better rides? Or do you own the horse in question?
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