I will preface this by saying I have not read the article.
But let me understand. A rider said the horse she was riding was over used/ too tired, but she was the one who over used said horse to begin with. And then she went on to show it even though she said it was over used and too tired? And to follow that up, she complained that the horse that she over used and was too tired in a national publication?
[QUOTE=Nickelodian;7636496]
I will preface this by saying I have not read the article.
But let me understand. A rider said the horse she was riding was over used/ too tired, but she was the one who over used said horse to begin with. And then she went on to show it even though she said it was over used and too tired? And to follow that up, she complained that the horse that she over used and was too tired in a national publication?[/QUOTE]
Don’t forget “and she did extremely well on aforementioned over-used/too-tired horse, including winning the USEF Show Jumping Talent Search Finals.”
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7634757]
Having now read the article in question…
I think she raises some good points.
HOWEVER, my overall feeling after reading about how dull and tired this horse was…. was “yeah, and who was the one who showed him in all of those classes? Oh yeah, you were!”
There is almost as much rider responsibility as there is trainer responsibility.
It did, to me, seem like a bit of a slap in the face to those who let Ms. Champ ride their horse(s). Perhaps not the most tactful way of doing it.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and even though she was ‘promised’ he would get a week off, it’s not her call! He was a sale horse! (Now if she owned the horse, she’d have every right to be angry)
Also, really what trainer is going to give a horse the entire week before Maclay Finals off? Did she really think that he was going to be frolicking about in green pastures for a week?? I give my show horses a LOT of time off, but the week before a final I’ve been working towards all year isn’t one of those times!
My take away from the article wasn’t that she was complaining about her horse being tired, or that she was making excuses for a poor finish. Her concerns didn’t even seem to be directed at the horse owner or trainer, but rather the system (i.e. point chasing, qualifying, the number of shows and the indoor circuit in general). Based on the horse’s show record, it doesn’t seem the horse was overworked when she was riding it (Thermal is a different story). It seems to me that she was just using her experience as a way to set the stage for the reader. Though hunters and jumpers can certainly be overused, the equitation division is unique because of the age limit, qualifying process and the number of finals.
[QUOTE=supershorty628;7634757]
Having now read the article in question…
I think she raises some good points.
HOWEVER, my overall feeling after reading about how dull and tired this horse was…. was “yeah, and who was the one who showed him in all of those classes? Oh yeah, you were!”
There is almost as much rider responsibility as there is trainer responsibility.
It did, to me, seem like a bit of a slap in the face to those who let Ms. Champ ride their horse(s). Perhaps not the most tactful way of doing it.[/QUOTE]
Well said.
“There is almost as much rider responsibility as there is trainer responsibility”.
I totally agree with this statement. Choices. We all make them. She obviously has talent and pursued her dream. When it doesn’t work out the way you want it to, you usually gain perspective. So I take it that this is her perspective now.
[QUOTE=fourfAlter;7636642]
Yes, and even though she was ‘promised’ he would get a week off, it’s not her call! He was a sale horse! (Now if she owned the horse, she’d have every right to be angry)
Also, really what trainer is going to give a horse the entire week before Maclay Finals off? Did she really think that he was going to be frolicking about in green pastures for a week?? I give my show horses a LOT of time off, but the week before a final I’ve been working towards all year isn’t one of those times![/QUOTE]
See I disagree with your point regarding horses working hard and finals. I don’t see a problem letting a horse go long and low, go out to walk, do 30 minutes of flat work, take them out of the ring in Kentucky where the ASPCA is held. Why, because how much can you really improve a horse before finals, at some point people need to realize after attending multiple finals that the horse is traveled to and the multiple shows it has likely been to from late summer to the first weekend in November. That animal has probably been at home 2 weeks out of 14-16. Most of the time the two weeks before regionals and going to finals is the most rigerous for horse and rider. The flat work is longer, the jumping asks more questions and riders are usually jumping bigger than what the finals are. Simply because junior riders can not and do not have the ability to be at the shows every afternoon.
Then the horse gets to finals, and is likely being schooled 45 minutes to an hour every day by trainer, or professional rider so that on Thursday night - Friday morning rider can get on and they can school themselves. Believe me most of the time schooling at finals/right before finals is not to benefit the horse but to benefit the rider. Then finals has the screwed up hours (midnight schooling) so once a horse is at capital challenge or Harrisburg or WIHS or the ASPCA finals it’s probably been ridden every day for at least an hour and has sometimes logged 2-3 hours worth of “schooling”. Every day 6 days a week for at least the past month if not past 3. As well as probably a week or more spent in transit.
At some point trainers (not children or junior riders) NEED TO STEP UP AND SAY this is as good as the horse is going to go. The constant need to run them off their legs and school them in extensive hardware to get them ring ready shows either the horse is not capable or the rider is not capable.
With regards to leasing out an equitation horse, there are trainers I would never send my horse to. Many of the creme de la creme bigeq horses have very specific lease contracts. Meaning they have to have so many days off a week, there is a max number of classes they can do a day, there is a max number of shows per month, there is mandatory vet care, chiro care, massage care. Heck I have leased my older eq horse out and I have flown in and checked on him. But he was usually only leased out 10 months of the year and brought home to have light hacking and turnout.
[QUOTE=fourfAlter;7636642]
Yes, and even though she was ‘promised’ he would get a week off, it’s not her call! He was a sale horse! (Now if she owned the horse, she’d have every right to be angry)
Also, really what trainer is going to give a horse the entire week before Maclay Finals off? Did she really think that he was going to be frolicking about in green pastures for a week?? I give my show horses a LOT of time off, but the week before a final I’ve been working towards all year isn’t one of those times![/QUOTE]
I understood that as a week off from showing, not from work in general. I think she expected him to be hacking around for a week, but instead was shipped to WIHS. I agree. No one would give a horse a full week off the week before Maclay finals.
I read that OC participated in a GM clinic in January 2014 which is great. Does she not have access to an eq horse or a show horse anymore? With her talent, it would be a shame if she stopped competing.
[QUOTE=busylady;7636686]
My take away from the article wasn’t that she was complaining about her horse being tired, or that she was making excuses for a poor finish. Her concerns didn’t even seem to be directed at the horse owner or trainer, but rather the system (i.e. point chasing, qualifying, the number of shows and the indoor circuit in general). Based on the horse’s show record, it doesn’t seem the horse was overworked when she was riding it (Thermal is a different story). It seems to me that she was just using her experience as a way to set the stage for the reader. Though hunters and jumpers can certainly be overused, the equitation division is unique because of the age limit, qualifying process and the number of finals.[/QUOTE]
Agree with this 100%. Plus regarding who is “responsible.” Many of the riders are kids 13-16 year olds. And while they may very responsible young people, and maybe should know better as to when and whether the horse is overworked–at the end of the day the buck stops with the adult owner.
[QUOTE=BITSA;7637059]
Agree with this 100%. Plus regarding who is “responsible.” Many of the riders are kids 13-16 year olds. And while they may very responsible young people, and maybe should know better as to when and whether the horse is overworked–at the end of the day the buck stops with the adult owner.[/QUOTE]
Aside from a parent, nobody is MAKING a high school aged kid show if she doesn’t want to. I cannot imagine she was in a position where she couldn’t have said “enough, I don’t want to do this anymore or don’t think it’s right.” It sound more like a situation you’re so indoctrinated to that you don’t even realize how wrong it was until you’re outside with the benefit of perspective.
[QUOTE=BITSA;7637059]
Agree with this 100%. Plus regarding who is “responsible.” Many of the riders are kids 13-16 year olds. And while they may very responsible young people, and maybe should know better as to when and whether the horse is overworked–at the end of the day the buck stops with the adult owner.[/QUOTE]
That’s fine, but then, IMO, they don’t get to try to portray themselves as a martyr in a national magazine in the sense of “oh, I’m not going to show anymore because this is so terrible.”
Not when she was actively contributing to the problem. Sorry, I don’t really buy that.
It’s too bad, because as I said before, I do think she raises some valid points - but I’m not impressed by how she chose to do so. Throwing her trainer(s) and horse owners under the bus (granted, without naming names), especially after their help led her to success, is not classy.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7637065]
Aside from a parent, nobody is MAKING a high school aged kid show if she doesn’t want to. I cannot imagine she was in a position where she couldn’t have said “enough, I don’t want to do this anymore or don’t think it’s right.” It sound more like a situation you’re so indoctrinated to that you don’t even realize how wrong it was until you’re outside with the benefit of perspective.[/QUOTE]
I think you are very right with this statement. When you become an outsider looking in, or you realize a pattern, and witness it with your eyes, and have no skin in the game it’s a lot easier to say. Is this right? Case in point I rode against a girl with a trainer that was constantly running her equitation horses to the ground. I cannot think of one year she wasn’t replacing horses because they were lame, or mentally fried. She would be on some of the most amazing horse flesh. She might win for a few weeks here and there but between the 45 minutes of lunging, the early am trainer schooling, followed by rider schooling, followed by 2 warm up rounds, an early week hunter division or 2, followed by the age group eq, followed by medals, and if horse wasn’t behaving the junior hunter division and or afternoon schooling. The horses just couldn’t or wouldn’t. My barn mates and I would always be a little jealous until the horses were melting down in the ring or stopping.
And everyone ragging on Olivia and judging her and saying she sounds angry, and needs to realize it was a sales horse. That young ladies riding was what made that horse as valuable as it is. A finals winning, and big regional winning equitation horse are much more valuable than prospects or non final and regional winners.
This isn’t some poor owners or poor Olivia story, because in all honesty the owners needed a competent rider to move from potential to tip top winning equitation horse and Olivia needed a horse to ride.
It’s unfortunate a 16 year old girl had to write this article versus some of the professionals that put their horses welfare first. The truth of the matter is it’s pretty unusual in hunters and equitation to see top horses last as long as top jumper counterparts. And that is really too bad. It is time though for 2 divisions a day plus a warmup to end, and the excessive schooling and lunging to be monitored.
[QUOTE=Trixie;7635764]
I find it kind of peculiar that there are trainers on here who find leasing frustrating. Tell me - which is preferable at a show barn, as I’m genuinely curious:
I know a lot of the bread and butter is buying and selling horses, or day rates at shows, and lessons/training rides, generally not the cost of board.
With the price of an A-show quality horse being what it is, would you prefer to see people leasing or buying greenies? Because SO many people are completely priced out of buying a show horse at this point, or even one with just a season or so under their belt.
(snip).[/QUOTE]
I think this is a very interesting question, and one I have commented on before. It has been my experience that trainers generally prefer the first scenario - where the rider leases a (made) horse and regularly shows that horse, perhaps with goals of qualifying for indoors, year end finals etc.
I think it is fairly rare - though not unheard of - for a trainer to be enthusiastic about the client who buys that green horse and who wants to spend years making that horse up. To restate an earlier post of mine, I do not think this is because those trainers are bad people. It’s because very few show barns are set up to have both a successful show program on the road, and a suitable program at home to bring along a young/green horse; particularly a young, green horse that the owner wants to do the majority of the training on. It’s just not a good fit for most trainers’ economic models.
[QUOTE=vxf111;7637065]
Aside from a parent, nobody is MAKING a high school aged kid show if she doesn’t want to. I cannot imagine she was in a position where she couldn’t have said “enough, I don’t want to do this anymore or don’t think it’s right.” It sound more like a situation you’re so indoctrinated to that you don’t even realize how wrong it was until you’re outside with the benefit of perspective.[/QUOTE]
I think that’s true and supershorty raises good points as well but picture this - you’ve been working all year, won Maclay regionals, won USET finals, now you’re in Kentucky and you get on the wonderful horse that is a free ride for you. Even though your morals tell you that the horse is too tired and has been showing for too long - the Maclay is just one more course for it to do… I think she would’ve seemed unappreciative at the time if she said she wouldn’t ride the horse because she thought it was being treated poorly/had shown too much. My mother would have murdered me if she paid for my airfare and hotel etc. to Kentucky (not to mention the shows to qualify for Kentucky, and the cost of regionals etc.) and then I got there and decided not to show out of the “horse’s best interest.” I think we’re expecting a bit too much from a 15 year old girl involved in an intensely competitive system.
I agree but I think the article is written from the pov of looking back at what she did and wondering why it didn’t seem wrong then the way it does now.
[QUOTE=Zuri;7637026]
I read that OC participated in a GM clinic in January 2014 which is great. Does she not have access to an eq horse or a show horse anymore? With her talent, it would be a shame if she stopped competing.[/QUOTE]
Her trainer was Karen Healey, one of the top equitation trainers around. I am sure Karen could of found her a equitation horse. Whether she could of afforded such a horse is a different story.
Wonder what Karen thinks of this article.
Equitation does not hve to take a toll
Horse shows are not mandatory. Just because there are horse shows every week, it does not mean you have to go to every one! It is not the nature of Equitation that takes a toll on the horse. It is the decisions made by owners and trainers to go to every single show and enter every available class. I do equitation and manage my horse wisely by treating him like an athlete. That means counting every jump and giving him time off to recover from hard work. I think Olivia is young and naive and I am resentful that the Chronicle printed this article.
I have not received my issue so I have not read this yet… Still reading the comments here I am of a mixed mindset. I think that the issues raised re important ones – and ones that we all know exist. I give credit to this junior for raising them. I suppose she could have declined to ride, but I think its a bit unrealistic to believe that a junior is sufficiently strong, mature, and willing to give up her only opportunity to ride at finals to make a point. I think that we are perhaps putting individuals who want to speak out between a rock and a hard place. Would this have been more acceptable if it had been published anonymously? Perhaps - because then no names would have been attached to the comments. On the other hand, its likely it would not have been published that way.
If we want to have an open dialogue about issues and problems, then we need to be willing to hear what may be a valid message even if we disagree with its presentation.
Also, we need to consider if perhaps the comments were prompted by a recognition or regret over the decision that was made.
If the message is valid, and its seems here that there is a lot of agreement that it is, then let’s focus on that.
[QUOTE=justathought;7637499]
I have not received my issue so I have not read this yet… Still reading the comments here I am of a mixed mindset. I think that the issues raised re important ones – and ones that we all know exist. I give credit to this junior for raising them. I suppose she could have declined to ride, but I think its a bit unrealistic to believe that a junior is sufficiently strong, mature, and willing to give up her only opportunity to ride at finals to make a point. I think that we are perhaps putting individuals who want to speak out between a rock and a hard place. Would this have been more acceptable if it had been published anonymously? Perhaps - because then no names would have been attached to the comments. On the other hand, its likely it would not have been published that way.
If we want to have an open dialogue about issues and problems, then we need to be willing to hear what may be a valid message even if we disagree with its presentation.
Also, we need to consider if perhaps the comments were prompted by a recognition or regret over the decision that was made.
If the message is valid, and its seems here that there is a lot of agreement that it is, then let’s focus on that.[/QUOTE]
My my my what a philosopher you are :lol:
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