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Could mare be pregnant?

I had my ISH mare A/IED on April 16th. On day 25 she palpated pregnant. But sonogram did not show an embryonic vessel. She was reassessed at day 32. Cervix was closed but sonogram did not show an fetus. Today is day 59 and mare has not cycled at all since being A/Ied. Any chance she is pregnant? Should I just wait for a lab test at six months if she continues not to show heat? Or is this just weird cycling following unsuccessful breeding? I have bred to this sire four times now with two different mares and still do not have a live baby. No more money to try again. Any thoughts appreciated.

Yes, it’s possible. The fetus could be beyond the reach of the probe. Don’t give up yet.

TB breeder here. Used to breed and check LOTS of mares. First check at 15 days post cover. Occasionally we couldn’t find anything even though the mare “felt” pregnant. So we would check again at 25 days to see if there was anything, embryonic vessel or if she was coming back into season.

At 30 days we always were able to see what was going on. Pretty hard for the little bugger to hide at this point from a very experienced Repro vet. We check again at 45 to make sure everything is going in the right direction and there are definitely no twins. Some TB breeders check again at 60 days. But at that time IMO we are very late into the breeding season. The breeding shed maybe closed for the season or it just too late breed for the TB market.

Your mare might be experiencing a false pregnancy. I think I would have aborted the mission at 45 and short cycled.

“I have bred to this sire four times now with two different mares and still do not have a live baby. No more money to try again.”

This is another reason why I like TB breeding. The vast majority of stallion service contracts are Life Foal, Stands and Nurses. “LFSN”. You don’t pay the fee until the mare has a viable foal that can stand and nurse. No fee to keep going back to the stallion until the mare is pregnant. Even if she is pronounced in foal but doesn’t end up having one and or has one that is compromised, doesn’t live after foaling. The is no fee.

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Perhaps nature is trying to tell you something. Often genetic incompatibility may cause early embryo death if some genetic disease has been transmitted to the foal.

You might have better luck trying another stallion.

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Where did I just read the article about this?? Let me look. I agree but 2 mares? I’d choose a different stallion with a success record.

What does the semen look like under the microscope? That should give you and indication if there is a problem with the stallion.

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I just had a problem with receiving some fresh semen. Under the microscope the vet said that motility was 20-25% – and that was giving it the benefit of the doubt because it was freshly out of the shipping container. Back at the office when the semen warmed up a bit the motility was closer to 10%. Definitely ask about motility before you order.

This method of paying the stud fee after the mare is confirmed in foal works for the Thoroughbred industry but does not necessarily work for other industries. If a Thoroughbred breeder refuses to pay the stud fee, the foal cannot be registered or raced in the future, so there is an incentive for the breeder to pay up. If a warmblood breeder decides not to pay the stud fee on a warmblood stallion, they can still raise the foal and sell it as a jumper or dressage horse, as most competitors do not care about papers. This is why most breeds require the stud fee be paid up front.

25% progressive motility is not necessarily bad. Most stallions are often at 50% progressive motility or lower at 24 hours. Not enough information has been provided to determine whether the shipment was poor or not. You have 25% of what? What was the total number of progressive sperm provided? Concentration and final volume is also needed. Motility only tells you one small part of the story. For example, 25% of 80 million sperm per ml is going to give you a very different insemination number than 25% of 480 million sperm per ml. Ideally, the Stallion Owner should have sent you 1 billion sperm.

At insemination time, you would like to have between 100-500 million progressively motile and morphologically normal sperm. If the stallion owner sent you 1 billion sperm and the progressive motility was 10%, then you still have an insemination dose of 100,000 progressively motile sperm which can still be an acceptable insemination dose.

I question the 25% motility unwarmed and then it dropping to 10% once warmed. Was the sample kept in the container on route back to the office? If not, this could have compromised the sperm and caused the motility to drop. In which case, the 25% motility would likely be the more realistic number
and was it 25% total motility or 25% progressive motility?

Here is a great article on the subject. http://www.equine-reproduction.com/articles/Poor-Semen.shtml

Here is a great quote from the author of the article: “There is no doubt that the mare’s uterus has as-yet not-understood “magical” properties when it comes to sperm, with an ability to “rejuvenate” what prior to insemination was a non- (or poorly-) motile sperm. - Jos Mottershead”

All you can do now is wait until the 2 week check and hope that she is pregnant. That being said, if a mare has issues with, for example, uterine clearance, then the addition of an oxytocin protocol, etc., has the potential to positively help the conception rate.

Don’t give up hope
 but
 my mare did something similar and she was not pregnant. We saw nothing on U/S, but her uterus palpated with a lot of tone, her cervix was tightly closed, and she did not cycle for several weeks after the cover. :confused:

She promptly started cycling again in August that year, which coincidentally is the time when all the thoroughbred sheds submit their final paperwork and close up shop for the season. Mares, amiright
 :rolleyes:

I hope your luck is better than mine! Sending positive thoughts!

This may sound like a fair argument but in the end it doesn’t mater what “breed” the foal/horse is if it doesn’t have papers. People by and large only pay top dollar for a young horse if it is a registered breed. Because other than looks/conformation if the pedigree isn’t verifiable it is only worth a fraction compared to a like horse that has “paper”.

An older un-papered horse that has already proven its ability in a given discipline will bring good money. But the owners has spent a considerable amount of time and money to get to that point. But its value will still be less than a papered horse with the same ability. It will have little value as a breeding prospect.

An unregistered Thoroughbred does not have a lot of value these days. It is not eligible for any of the TB industry backed competitions. When I was selling TB re-schools the first question asked, “Is the horse registered”? “Is it eligible for JC TIPS program?” “Is it RRP eligible?” These horses were only priced in the $3-5,000 range. If the answer was NO, there were be NO interest.

I think it would be the same for any sport horse that is being offered based on the owners say what breed it is. I am sure there were be interest but at a give-away price.

A TB’s stud fee can be paid by someone other than the breeder long after it was born. If someone really wanted to register it. The fee may or may not be negotiable with the stud farm. May be able to get a reduction if it is registered for non breeding purposes. But the JC registration fee goes up considerably after after the horse is over 2 years old.

So IMO your rebuttal doesn’t really hold much water. “Warmblood” stud fees are a fraction of the average TB’s. A fraction of the total cost, expenses a breeder by the time the horse is salable. Penny wise pound foolish not to pay the fee. Warmblood stallion owners should offer the same contract, Live foal, stands and nurses. They have a fraction of the expenses that TB stallion farms have because of live cover. They know due to the difficulties of AI and getting mares settled they would loose some money. At least that is how it was explained to me by those in that side of the stallion business.

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@gumtree

As someone who has played in both ponds, so to speak, I’m with Daventry on this one.

It’s easier to skip out on a sport horse stud fee with minimal negative consequences. While I agree with you that an unpapered horse is worth less, the fact remains that open horse shows do not require papers.

It is all but impossible to skip out on a thoroughbred’s stud fee and have the horse be worth anything, as you rightfully note.

Plus, shipping semen is not free and most of these stallions only get a handful of outside mares a year. That’s a lot of out of pocket expense for the stallion owner, especially if you were to never recoup any fee due to loss of foal or nonpayment.

There is zero money in standing warmblood stallions alone. The farms who have been able to profit from it are usually the ones with the capability to breed, compete, then sell their own offspring.

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Daventry’s right, for sport. You don’t need proven parentage to compete in sports such as eventing, HJ, and dressage – and you don’t need pedigree papers either.

So many competitors/trainers/people do not care about the pedigree so long as it is a “Warmblood”. Doesn’t matter if it is HOL, HAN or GOV - if it has WB in it, it already has increased value in the eyes of the common and uninitiated populace, which usually have fat checks standing nearby
 It is a completely different game than racing
 As it stands now, there is next to no negative repercussion for not paying the stud fee with WBs; you can still register the foal if you wanted, and even if you didn’t register the foal, it is unlikely to harm the value of the foal down the road if it is a legitimate quality animal.

So, so many horses are “unpapered” or have no proof of pedigree (“unknown” on passport/FEI registration) and go for $$$$ in the HJ market. Most competitors don’t know or care at all about pedigree
 Dressage has a bit more interest in the pedigree but by and large for the sport market the horse in front of you is much more important than any piece of paper that comes with it.

For sport, where there is frozen, fresh, cooled, and very rarely live-cover, it doesn’t make sense to have a “don’t pay until live/standing” contract, which is, IMHO, directly correlated into the “lower” stud fee prices – there are jumpers that have no live foal guarantee that are selling doses at $3000
 considering live cover is in many ways more likely to get conception than frozen/cooled/fresh, and most sport studs do not offer live cover, there is very little reason or incentive to offer a “no payment until foal stands/nurses” at all.

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Good points, good primer. But having made my living brokering TB stallion prospects to the international market. Pretty expensive ones. I had to preform fertility tests as part of the purchase agreements. Work with some of the best stallion reproductive vets in the world. What you have presented only begins to touch on the subject. That being said the Vets I worked all said a fertility report, examination is based on “theoretical norms”. A “perfect” report does NOT grantee anything. It just tells the buyer that the quality of the stallion’s semen fall within X of industry standards. Nothing more nothing less.

Have worked with stallion prospects that had “perfect” reports but had trouble getting mares in foal. Had stallions who marginally “failed” and settled mares well above the TB industry’s standard bench mark of 65%. The Jockey puts out an annual “book” called the return of mares for all JC registered TB stallions. Number of mares bred, number of live foals reported. Used to be able to search year by years. Not so easy any more. Only the past breeding season. It was/is a controversial statistic anyway. Pretty unfair to the stallion, stallion owners. Because it puts ALL of the “blame” on a stallion if when it has a low Live Foal report. It doesn’t take into consideration problematic mares and or the people managing the mares being sent to the stallion. Esp with regional stallions and “backyard” hobby managed mares.

One of the most important “number” IMO is not as much about the volume, number of sperm but the motility. Are they good swimmers. But more importantly can they go the distance? Are they long lived?. One of the top TB stallions in the 80s and 90s was Nureyev was notorious for having difficulties settling his mares. But his fertility “check out” so no claim could be made on the infertility insurance policy. As it turned out it was discovered that his boys were good swimmers. But they were sprinters and didn’t last long. So his book of mares had to be managed VERY closely. They generally had to reside and be managed at the standing farm Walmac International. Or an approved farm near by. They had to be palped, checked constantly leading up to the cover. They had to be hot as a pistol on the verge or just over the top of ovulation and a few other factors. The mare maybe covered at 3 in the afternoon or 3 AM. He was a top stallion and his fee was several hundred thousand at its peak. So he was worth the effort. A good friend of mine was the stallion manager he would just roll his eyes the name Nureyev came up, lol.

I you’re in the insurance business so I assume you know. But others may not. If they stallion owners want to obtain Infertility insurance a “test” is not done. For obvious reasons. But that is not to say standing farm doesn’t perform it’s own examination after a mare is covered. Pretty much SOP at well run/managed stallion farms to have a look see at the “slop” a “dismount” sample post cover. Most if not all top stallion farms have excellent in house labs.

There have been some hefty infertility insurance pay outs in the TB world. El Gran Senor being one. $40+million. He was bought back from the insurance company for some like 10 cents on the payout dollar. He still went on to be a very suspenseful stallion with very small foal crops. His fee dropped considerably and just about all contracts were Live Foal. But mare owners knew they were taking a chance. Picked and managed the mares accordingly.

I bought a high priced syndicated stallion that was insurance claim. He was very sub fertile. But I was buying him for a private breeder in Brazil for pennies on the dollar. Don’t know if he took a liking to southern hemisphere or the mares he was getting. The new owner was able to achieve around 70% live foals. Up from 30+% when the claim was made.

The really frustrating stallions to work with, figure out for live cover are “Shy breeders”. They have excellent fertility just NO interest in covering mares.

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Read what I wrote please. I was NOT talking about proven horses. I was talking about people who breed and sell young UNPROVEN horses. You are talking more about the exception then the norm for a lot of breeders. A mule will bring top dollar if it is a Grand Prix champion.

If you read the Chronicle there are plenty of horses that go by “known breeding”.

Curious how many horses have you bred and sold?

My living had been made with TBs because that is the most reliable way of making a living with horses. But I grew up in and around the Sport horse world. Have lot of friends in it. “names” and “no names”. This country and abroad.

“Most competitors don’t know or care at all about pedigree
 Dressage has a bit more interest in the pedigree but by and large for the sport market the horse in front of you is much more important than any piece of paper that comes with it”

I don’t entirely disagree. But you are making a blanket statement. If true as you make out to be there would be a fraction of the people and money in the business of sport horse breeding.

Good lord! This thread was simply discussing shipped semen and whether 25% progressive motility at 24 hours is actually bad or not. How did this thread suddenly turn into the long-winded topic of breeding Thoroughbreds? :confused:

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One of the stud farms I visited in KY a few years ago said they have a “slow” shed and a “fast shed”. Some stallions get the job done ib 10 minutes they said, while others take an hour


Is it that those others aren’t interested, or just like to take their time?

The answer is
it depends on the individual stallion. Some stallions naturally have a lower libido than others. For other stallions, pain can be an issue, e.g. hock pain, back pain, which then takes them longer to get into the right frame of mind for breeding. Some like to wine and dine and take their time with a mare. Others have had past bad experiences, maybe a poor experience with a human handler or a mare kicking, which makes them more hesitant to get excited about the task at hand.

I would ask around to see what luck other breeders are having with the stallion you are using. You didn’t mention if you are using fresh chilled or frozen semen. Some stallions seem to have semen that doesn’t freeze well. I have learned to check around before I decide to use frozen semen because there are some stallions whose frozen semen has such a low likelihood of achieving pregnancy, that I save myself a lot of frustration by just choosing another stallion.

You also didn’t mention whether or not you had cultured or biopsied your mares prior to breeding. I always culture prior to breeding so that I don’t have to worry that a subacute endometritis will interfere with breeding success. How old is she? And has she ever settled successfully? If she is older than 18 to 20 or cushingoid she may well not be cycling normally. Did you or your vet breed her? Did you give oxcytocin post insemination ? If your vet is not seeing a vesicle or embryo by day 60, I doubt she is pregnant. I would discuss with your vet or a repro specialist as well. But same stallion with 2 different mars assuming you did everything textbook fashion with the mares, could well just be the stallion or how his semen was processed or shipped (or if frozen, how the semen was thawed; not all vets have the same experience with using frozen).

I did read what you wrote. I think you are speaking under the assumption the TB world is similar to the sport world. It is vastly different. The unpapered proven horse goes for just as much as the papered, proven horse in the sport world. I see it happen all the time. Most amateurs do not care about pedigree, exception being some in dressage due to some high octane, non-friendly lines


The same cannot be said in TB racing because an unpapered TB is virtually useless in every way and very few sport-people want TBs for breeding
 can’t be ‘competed’, can’t be bred because its foals won’t be eligible for registry with the JC
 but an unpapered, unproven WB can be competed and bred
 because there is not a requirement to be registered/papered by a registry in order to compete (outside of breed classes)
 and you can still get some form of registration in certain registries if you cared enough to do the work.

Curious how many UL/FEI barns you’ve worked or been involved in?

Only recently, thanks to some big pushes for certain bloodlines by certain BNTs, has the average competitor started to care more about pedigree
 but they still care very little about papers.