County Saddles and Flat Backs (Bonus, with High Withers too!)

[Dressage.For.Life]

I got my Thoroughbred a custom County Connection in the summer of 2012. I went with County mainly because there was a rep in my area and I knew of no other fitters that routinely came to my area. So, I was pretty much backed into a corner because the rep could only work on County saddles. :no:

Anyway, I ended up with a saddle that seemed to work for my horse but wasn’t exactly what I wanted. The “short” flaps on my custom County aren’t short enough for my taste and the knee blocks aren’t in exactly the right place for me (and try to pitch me backwards). But the saddle has done OK. Even sweat marks, saddle doesn’t slip, etc. Fast foreword to today…

A fellow boarder and I were able to get an independent mast saddle fitter out and for giggles I had her look at my horse to get an unbiased opinion on his saddle. Long story short, my County, which is stamped a M but is apparently more like a MW, is too narrow. OK, that just means my horse could’ve gained enough muscle to outgrow his saddle. It happens. His saddle was checked by the County rep about 6 months ago but again, OK. But then, this fitter showed me how the panels are too sloped for my horse’s flat back. Am I wrong to think that a horse with a flat back will always have a flat back, despite changes in muscle tone and topline?

What are your experiences with horses with large withers and flat backs? How do County saddles do for horses with flat backs? I’m just beginning to question whether or not this saddle ever really fit my horse.

My options are 1.) continue riding in current saddle which horse is not reacting differently to and pay County rep $300 to evaluate and reflock saddle and likely tell me I need a new saddle and then expect me to order right then and there 2.) send saddle off with master saddler and have her widen tree for ~$250 or 3.) begin the dreaded search for a new saddle with the independent master saddler.

My concern with #1 is that I’m not sure I would want to get another County! I mean, they’re nice but I ordered a custom saddle for my horse and I—and that’s not what I got. Instead, I got told that I couldn’t get flaps the length I wanted, and I was stuck with big immobile knee blocks that my trainer tells to have cut out and fitted with Velcro. :mad:

My concerns with #2 is that I hate to have my current saddle widened and possibly hurt the resale value of it (would it hurt the resale value? MW is more common than M but I don’t know…). Also, I’m not sure if it’d be worth it to make such a change if the panels really are too curved for my horse’s flatter back.

As for option #3, I am not made of money. I’ve had a lot of large expenses lately and the last thing I want to do is to have to get a new saddle. But perhaps it is the best option…I guess I’m just worried that even if I can find the funds, I may end up worse off.

Any advice will be much appreciated! TIA.

[cleozowner]

It’s interfering with your riding (which will ultimately make your horse unhappy), and its poor fit is big risk for making your horse uncomfortable/unhappy? Sell it! County saddles are lovely construction but stupid expensive, which hopefully means you’ll get a decent amount for it. There are several other UK brands (Black Country, Hastilow in the $3k range; Loxley by Bliss, Frank Baines in the $2k range) that also make very nice saddles. It doesn’t matter how pretty/soft/expensive the saddle is if it doesn’t work for you.

Saddle shopping is awful…I joke that next time I go horse shopping I’m just going to buy whatever fits my saddle…but I think 2+ years is fair trial to see if this saddle would work.

[jaybird660]

Horses that have a slight curve might build up so that they get flatter longitudinally but a flat horse unless aged or not working will unlikely get curvier. Young horses develop unevenly front and then back so they will change, however.

As the poster above stated, if you are unhappy in the saddle, ultimately, you won’t be satisfied. If you feel that overall it is good except for the blocks, you can have Velcro blocks added. It could be that you are pitched backward as you said, because the saddle is also too narrow.

The tree should only be widened up to a size so if it is two sizes too narrow, I wouldn’t go that route. If the horse has a high wither, consider a K, trapezius or skid row panel to allow the saddle to be wide enough or perhaps just wither gussets or full front gussets so that the saddle doesn’t collapse on the wither but allows for the shoulders.

Keep in mind, I’m suggesting all of this without any photos of conformation or saddle pics.

[Dressage.For.Life]

Thanks for the advice so far! My Thoroughbred is a 2000 model so I do wonder how his back will change as he continues to age.

I forgot to add that that this saddle does have a skid row panel. It also has a keyhole tree (not sure what that means!?) and a total gusset depth of 3". I’m not necessarily saying it never fit it but rather I’m not sure if it was ever an ideal fit for him because the fitter yesterday said that the panels are curved when he has a flat back. I’ve kept up with the approximately every 6 month checks with the rep and was under the impression that I had a saddle that fit my horse (until yesterday).

That makes sense that the saddle could be pitching my leg backwards due to the saddle being too narrow–I hadn’t thought of that. Jaybird, would having the tree widened by this master saddlery or the County rep decrease the value of my saddle? Also, what about adding velcro to the knee blocks? Some other saddles at my barn have gone this route and they look very well done. But is it likely to decrease the value of the saddle?

[CrotchetyDQ]

County saddles DO NOT have an adjustable tree!!! If your new saddle fitter puts it on a press, they will break the tree and void any warranty you have. You can have the tree changed by County, but it is not cheap. However, it is way cheaper than a new saddle.

[alibi_18]

Crotchty is right, County saddles cannot be widened…

Also, about that “unbiaised” opinion…there is no such thing from saddle fitters…

Your horse is technically fine with your saddle (even sweat patterns, even muscling/development…)

I’m not saying you should keeep this saddle if you no linger think it fits but technically, you picked that particular saddle out of X models of County saddle, it’s not like the rep never told you that the panels couldn’t be cut shorter and what the blocks would look like. They do have different models with shorter blocks and panels…and some can have velcro blocks. So, why did you liked that particular saddle, and why did you order that? What made you change your mind regarding this saddle for you? (influence from friends, trainers…?)

I had my saddle reajusted recently by a master saddler. Really nice job done to my saddle but oh boy, did I had to argue!!! I first told the fitter my saddle needed XY and maybe some Z. I was told my saddle wasn’t fitting, my saddle could never work, saddle fitter didn’t know if she could even do something…that I should consider buying a new one… Well, after half an hour of flattery from my side, the saddle fitter agreed that XYZ was needed and my saddle was fitted the way I wanted. Fitter was all happy of her job and I profusely thanked her for her hard work and good eye on what my saddle needed. LoL.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=CrotchetyDQ;7964989]
County saddles DO NOT have an adjustable tree!!! If your new saddle fitter puts it on a press, they will break the tree and void any warranty you have. You can have the tree changed by County, but it is not cheap. However, it is way cheaper than a new saddle.[/QUOTE]

Actually, almost any spring tree can be popped out/in half a size to one whole size by a competent saddler. The folks at Smith Worthington are some of the best when it comes to that particular job, regardless of the actual saddle brand. It will likely void the warranty, of course, but if a $100 adjustment is the make/break between keeping the saddle and spending $3000 on a new one, well…

But you’re right, it’s not adjustable in the way that a Kieffer or Prestige is.

OP, I had a TB with a super flat back and withers. She wore two different Countys that I found used, but they fit like they were made for her. (Verified by a trusted independent saddler, not a County rep.) Your saddle DOES fit your horse, regardless of the independent saddler’s opinion, because it has clearly been working for him. Horses have a funny way of not reading the text book when it comes to liking what “should” fit them.

As for the saddle not fitting YOU, that honestly just sounds like buyer’s remorse for not being pushy enough about getting your own interests taken care of.

I might get a third opinion on your saddle, to serve as the “tiebreaker”, even if it’s as simple as paying the folks at Trumbull Mt. $50 to eval the fit from a good set of photos. (They are pros at distance fitting and have several guides on what photos they will need.) But ultimately, if the saddle is not causing your horse any issues, I would likely listen to him, first and foremost, and continue using it.

The only reason I’d consider getting a new saddle in this situation is to fit YOU better. In which case, work with the new saddle fitter to figure out what exactly is needed, since it doesn’t sound like County can necessarily make you that saddle.

[Dressage.For.Life]

Thanks for confirming my suspicion about voiding the warranty. I knew County’s didn’t have an adjustable tree but thought she was maybe getting at something else. Hmm…

The “unbiased” opinion I was looking for was that from somebody not associated with County. I ordered the saddle I’ve got today because it was the best thing out of the County lineup for my horse and I. I did not want to go with County at all because I knew I couldn’t get all the things I needed (short enough flaps, set back stirrup bars, etc.) but I was stuck because at the time the County rep was the only person who came to my area semi-regularly and they are restricted to working only on County saddles and I needed a saddle that fit my horse. And I asked about knee blocks at the time I ordered the saddle and was never told that it was possible for me to get different blocks on my saddle or that I could do velcro blocks.

The fact that this saddle is no longer the best fit for my horse (too narrow) means that something must be done. And because this saddle was never custom to my specifications (flap length, etc.) makes me hesitant to throw more money at this saddle to have the tree replaced. As my horse and I continue more advanced work I really can’t have a saddle that I am fighting against.

Thanks for sharing your experiences with a master saddler. I’m sorry you had to fight for what you needed but I’m glad you ended up with what you wanted!

[jaybird660]

I have discussed this with reliable sources who have said that they are like any other British tree and can be adjusted. Keep in mind that it might void a warranty and British trees can only be widened a size or less and by a reputable saddler or fitter. There are people with tree presses that don’t always do a symmetrical or careful job.

[Dressage.For.Life]

Thanks, GoForAGallop–I think another opinion is in order before I go to any extremes! I will look into that to see what kind of photos I will need to take, etc. And you are certainly right in that horses don’t read the book on what “should” fit.

And thank you, Jaybird. I do trust this saddler and know others who have had good experiences with her.

[Hunterkid]

1- county reps can work on other saddles, “yours” maybe doesn’t want to, but technically they can

2- all county saddles run wide, it’s pretty common knowledge, that is why your M fits like a MW.

County tends to have really good reps, just because another saddle fitter said that it didn’t fit, doesn’t mean they are god (neither are the county fitters). There are a lot of terrible saddle fitters out there. It sounds like you didn’t get the right saddle for you, county has tons and tons of options, but if you don’t like your saddle you should sell it.

You could always talk to your county rep about what you don’t like about your saddle, they can’t help you if they don’t know.

[PNWjumper]

[QUOTE=Hunterkid;7965571]
1- county reps can work on other saddles, “yours” maybe doesn’t want to, but technically they can

2- all county saddles run wide, it’s pretty common knowledge, that is why your M fits like a MW.

County tends to have really good reps, just because another saddle fitter said that it didn’t fit, doesn’t mean they are god (neither are the county fitters). There are a lot of terrible saddle fitters out there. It sounds like you didn’t get the right saddle for you, county has tons and tons of options, but if you don’t like your saddle you should sell it.

You could always talk to your county rep about what you don’t like about your saddle, they can’t help you if they don’t know.[/QUOTE]

I completely agree with all of this.

Start with the County rep - I would reiterate everything you’ve said here to him or her. I would not start with a check and reflock without having the conversation first. But finding a “great” saddle fitter is more important in my mind than sticking with a particular brand. I feel lucky that I have an incredible saddle fitter who happens to be a County rep, but you can bet that if I lost access to her I would not be adverse to going to another brand (like BC) if there was a great saddle fitter there.

In regards to back shape. All of my horses have relatively flat backs and gigantic withers. Counties are the only saddles I’ve ever liked on any of my horses (in that they fit both me and the horse). But I had the same model I ride my upper level (jumper, not dressage, FWIW) horse in with a different seat size and slightly different options and HATED it! So how you feel about the saddle is, of course, heavily dependent on how it fits you. And if it doesn’t fit you just right you should NOT try to “suffer through it.” It won’t benefit your riding in the long run. Having said that, I’ve certainly ridden in saddles that I didn’t love in the name of fitting the horse through the years, but ultimately only until I could buy a saddle that fit us both.

In regards to the blocks…I ordered a new saddle (County) recently and had them put in velcro blocks so that I could move them around. I’ve never been happy with where knee blocks are typically placed, so being able to shift them back an inch or two has made a huge difference to me!

And as others have said, if you don’t have the dollars for a new County but like how it fits (or used to fit) your horse, it might be worthwhile to check out Black Country. I’ve heard a lot of people rave about them over the years, and specifically how similar to Counties they are but at a lower price point.

[alibi_18]

Just thought about it a friend of mine had her saddle (unknown brand) modified by a County fitter. The knee pad/flap was removed completely and changed to a “made-to-measure” County full lenght exposed thigh block. - it then looked and felt like a County Perfection!!! I think it cost her around 300$ or so… Could something similar be done?