Crabby horse or painful horse?

[twobits]

Hey all. We are trying to sort out what to do for one particular horse at the barn. She is an off the track thoroughbred mare that has forever and always been “sharky”. She tries to bite you (not pretend, like if she gets you, she gets you!) when brushing, she will threaten to kick you when saddling her and adjusting the girth from the ground. You even have to be a bit careful walking her to and from the barn for turnout, etc. When you are on her back she can be nappy to start, doesn’t want to go forward or take contact, but after about 10-15 minutes of warming up, she becomes a beautiful, in your hand, hunter. Jumps a 10 and never stops - seems excited to do her job at the jumps. Now here is the kicker - when she is in season, she is the sweetest mare you have ever met! In your pocket, snuggles, kisses, loves to love, etc. Absolutely NO issues! We have talked to two vets - they say she’s just crabby. Owner had a saddle fitter out and just bought her a new saddle. She likes her new saddle but is still crabby on the ground. Tried to get her massage therapy this weekend - she had some huge releases, but then in a split moment, kicked the therapist and decided she had enough. Have done chiro and there was nothing remarkable noted. She’s on a few supplements - MSM, chasteberry, biotic 8. We have tried recommended ground work exercises, brush and lunge, etc., etc., but nothing seems to make an everlasting impression on her. Time off makes her more crabby, it seems like she enjoys having a job. She has friends outside, she loves her full day turnout, is happy in her stall at night too.

Can anyone shed some additional light? Is she just sharky? Can we fix this through X,Y,Z? Have you had a horse similar? Thanks

[Scribbler]

Ulcers?

[twobits]

Horse was previously treated for ulcers - did not change anything through treatment, vet advised to stop further treatment.

[fivestrideline]

Hmm usually the ones that “work out if it” have either some arthritic pain somewhere, or a poorly fitted saddle (since eventually the shoulders go numb and it stops hurting - if you’ve ever worn a backpacking pack you’ve probably experienced it, but on your hips). I see that you’ve had a saddle fitted and that hasn’t changed a ton. Since ulcers have been treated, and I’m assuming she’s had a lameness exam of some sort done, it’s on to the less common stuff. I don’t mind a horse that isn’t cuddly or doesn’t particularly enjoy grooming, but this sounds extreme.

At this point if I was the owner I’d be looking into pulling some blood work and maybe ultrasounding her repro system. Something is definitely wrong, and if she’s biting and kicking even occasionally, at some point a person is going to get seriously injured. And at some point it becomes dangerous to let just regular barn staff handle her, which narrows your options for boarding. Showing too, where there is even less control of the situation. I’d be VERY motivated to try to find something to help, from a safety standpoint.

I’m very interested to follow this one. Something I haven’t seen a lot of!

[shiloh]

She maybe that horse that is all business all the time. Except when she is in season, of course. lol

One of my barn friends bought a mare like that. She hated fussing, hated grooming, just wanted to get to work. And of course her owner only wanted to fuss - sometimes taking 2 hours to brush and saddle by which time the horse had nearly lost her mind.The longer you took, the worse she got - kicking, snapping her teeth at you, trying to strike - most unpleasant. Under saddle, work all day and then some. Was worse after time off. Nothing wrong with her just “that” kind of horse. Maybe this is the case here? just a thought…

Maybe pull blood? See what that says… Try acupuncture. Anything is worth a try. What do you have to lose here?

[2DogsFarm]

How long has she been off the track?
How long did she race?
A lot of behavior is tolerated there that is most definitely not as a “pet” horse.

My own TB never raced, but trainer kept him as a pony for 4yrs.
He was always a bit nippy, but came to understand that did not fly with me & redirected his aggression to anywhere else: stall wall, crosstie, etc.
As long as teeth came nowhere near me, he could be as cranky as he wanted.

Trainer (at Arlington) who sold him to me once invited me to a Derby party where guests were other trainers, jockeys, track workers.
One woman showed up late with a bandaged hand.
Explained a filly she had in training had nearly bit her finger off.
Said proudly: " She has spirit!"

[Tha_Ridge]

I was going to say the same! I have a recently-gelded 17 hand ( ) 4-year-old who just came off the track last month. He’s been a bit frustrating for barn staff as he can be a little snakey, likes to play “horse kite” coming in from turnout, and doesn’t like being fussed over in the crossties. Put him to work on the lunge and he reacts with military-level precision with absolutely zero funny business and looks happy as a clam with the structure and guidance that comes along with training.

Assuming any physical issues have been addressed, I firmly believe some horses are not pets and never will be. It doesn’t mean they aren’t 100% willing partners where it counts.

[2DogsFarm]

My guy eventually settled.
But I habitually kept an eye on him
After almost 20yrs, if he made a move to nuzzle me… We’d both pull back & I’d swear he looked embarrassed

ETA:
At least your guy crossties.
That’s another thing generally not taught at the track.
In a shedrow - that sometimes is ridden through - there’s no place for crossties.

[GraceLikeRain]

A vet that says discontinue ulcer treatment if there is not external improvement without recommending scoping and saying a horse is “just crabby” is red flag territory to me. Depending on the nature and severity of ulcers it could be well over a month before there is any external sign of change.

Personally, I’d haul to a local clinic - gastric scope, ovarian ultrasound, full flexions, x-ray feet/neck/back. Yes, it’ll set you back a nice $1,200-1,600 but it is cheaper than yet another saddle or chasing supplements and training devices. The disposition change when in season seems like a real indicator that there is something physical.

In the interim, I’d look into Warwick Schiller’s videos on atunement and connection. Regardless of her physical state, helping her see that you see when her boundaries are crossed often diminishes the externalizing and escalation of behavior. Even body workers can miss the signs of when a horse needs space and to breathe. She probably gave several indicators before she lashed out through her eyes, mouth, breath, etc. It is painfully subtle from a human perspective but another horse would pick up on it instantly and move away. We just need to learn how to read them like another horse (simple but not always easy).

I’ve got one I am working with right now that is super “snarky” and as the BM calls “bitchy” (much to my annoyance). A few sessions of just acknowledging that I was listening to her and she more often than not ear pins and then flicks them forward or ear twitches and then reaches out to connect with me with soft eyes. She’s a very kind horse but got used to people only listening when she got loud and started throwing back ears and swinging her head.

[Pico_Banana]

Which chasteberry supplement are you using? My crabby mare hugely improves on Evitex. I tried to save some $ by switching to the SmartPak pellets and it wasn’t the same at all.

[sascha]

Does whatever reprimand she receives for physically attacking (biting, kicking) a human match the mare’s faux pas?

If it doesn’t, it needs to.

I own one similar and also have a zero tolerance policy for biting, kicking, striking, rearing, pawing and fidgeting. The mare has turned into a lovebug with a few small quirks - there will be ugly faces for grooming the belly (bathing is fine) and to avoid ugly face for girthing, I’d better do it “right”. She’s a ticklish thing that took quite a while to get over ulcers - took a while to find meds that worked well enough for her - omeprazole was not one of them - but knows her boundaries and through enforcement of those boundaries over the years, has learned that I will listen to much more subtle communication from her.

So there’s my advice _-try more ulcer drugs and be a hard ass about manners. Honestly kicking a massage therapist? The horse should know that kicking anyone is absolutely 100% not on the list of ways to communicate with humans.

[fordtraktor]

I have a mare that can be a bit “grumpy.” I think it is entirely hormonal for her. FWIW, she’s pregnant now and SO SWEET. She also is excellent to work, all business at her job.

She is less grumpy with people than with her mare friends, FWIW. That field of girls secretly adores each other, but an outsider would think they all absolutely HATE EACH OTHER TO DEATH, EACH AND EVERY ONE. I find it kind of hilarious. They’ll look like their are going to murder one another, pinned ears, air biting, curled up nostrils, hoof stomps in warning…they they see me and their ears go soft and floppy and their eyes are inquisitive and they are like “what? We aren’t doing anything….we’re fine, everything is fine, why do you ask?”

[Guyot]

So of course even if she is in pain she should never bite, kick, or be aggressive toward people. She does need to be taught to find another way to say she’s unhappy and to be heard. This here is a training issue.

That said, the fact is she is screaming at you that she hurts somewhere. She probably feels better when in work and standing around is causing more discomfort. Since you have addressed saddle, ulcers, etc. I would start checking repo issues. The fact that during her cycle she has pleasant weeks I would get with a good repo specialist and find where exactly she is in her cycle when she’s nice. If it’s between season keep her on regumate. If she’s better during her season (open to being bred) then you may consider spaying.

(There is a whole thread over in hunter/jumper about spaying a mare where I have contributed and listed my mare situation… I’m soo beyond happy I spayed her! Best 5k I’ve ever spent and due to her issues insurance kicked in)

Best of luck, we need better understanding of mares and what they go thru and I think they’ve (not unlike women in general) suffer in silence way to long.

[Jealoushe]

Was she scoped for ulcers or just treated?

I would bet big time its ulcers or a hormone issue.

Ulcers can take longer than expected to heal.
Hindgut ulcers require specialized treatment.

I would have the horse scoped to rule out ulcers first.

[NancyM]

Sometimes a horse who feels that life has been unfair or torturous previously, will hold a grudge into the future. They can be slow to extend trust to a human again. It can show up as “cranky” or “avoidance” behavior, as the horse tries to protect itself from what it fears, gaining the upper hand in the new relationship with a human early, and holding that position if possible. Rather than discipline to attempt to change the behavior, try “comforting” the horse. I know it sounds absurd, and against the normal human nature to strike out and punish, but it can solve the problem.

I have acquired two horses, both with past negative histories, and this was the route I took to make them more manageable, happier, and safer to be around. Good luck.

[twobits]

Wow, what great suggestions here! We are leaning towards repo issues and have contacted our vet about options and are now looking at symptoms for repo issues and how we can help her (regumate, spaying, hormone therapy, etc).

Up to now, it’s been a battle between being firm and being understanding. We try very hard to work ‘without emotion’ aka to not take it personally. We believe there is more to the story than just being crabby, which is why we are trying to start think outside of the regular box of horse health issues. Thank you all for your help and suggestions

[Scribbler]

If clearly linked to her cycles then there’s something in the repro end of things.

[Southernboy]

Most of my horses have been ottbs. Some were crabby and got over it when they realized they would be handled more kindly. One didn’t. My vet suggested a few days of anti-inflammatories and then go through a normal day of riding and re-evaluate her. It might give you some insight to the pain vs attitude - keep in mind it might be both. This isn’t a cure just a diagnostic test.

[Jealoushe]

A round of regumate will tell you fairly quickly if its hormones. For one of our mares it was a huge huge help.

[frugalannie]

Good to know that you’ve a path to follow. I’m not a vet, but I’m not sure that’s where I’d pin the problem. Nonetheless, if regumate works, you’ll have an answer.

So having said, these are things I’d want to rule out if regumate doesn’t work. Have her teeth been done? Has she been checked over to be sure there isn’t an occult fracture of the withers (happens in track horses) or ribs? And what you are describing is exactly what my OTTB gelding had been doing. We’re on our second 30 day stint of ulcer meds, full tube a day, and he’s much happier. Also had to implement a diet change to heavy on grass hay, alfalfa cubes and pellets, flax and Vitamin E but no sweet feed or anything but those components. He is a MUCH happier camper, has gained 100 lbs, and is enjoying attention and life in general now. I would never have come up with all of this without my fabulous vet.