Crating dogs..when did this become the norm?

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7606200]
I have seen entire sofas that were chewed down to the wooden frame in the space of an afternoon. I have seen huge holes chewed and clawed into drywall. …I have also seen dogs surrendered to shelters because they barked too much while left outside unsupervised. [/QUOTE]

Yes, that’s the point that a number of people here, Sswor for instance (and others, including me) are making: crating is the management tool, as Sswor said, for a lot of dog owners. The rest of us TRAINED THE DOG. There will always be the incorrigibles, esp. today when poor Foofy-woofy is poorly bred and left untrained and, as you say, owned by idiots. But the basic decent dog can be trained to behave, and if the owners would only take the trouble to do that and also take the trouble to exercise fully - no once-around-the-block crap - their dogs, they would be astounded at how little trouble the dogs get into. But they don’t. The dogs are alone all day and the owner comes home, lets them out to potty, makes dinner, and plunks down in front of the tv or computer. No wonder Fido is bored out of his skull.

Training also gives mental stimulation, which makes for a more mentally fit, relaxed dog beyond the training.

[IdahoRider]

@S1969;7605792

You are looking to be offended.

She is not saying that crating 23/7 is good; but that it’s one of many types of neglect - just as keeping a dog perpetually kenneled or tied to a doghouse and totally devoid of human interaction is also a form of neglect.

I think that there are probably many dogs that are crated half their day - or more - and live absolutely fabulous dog lives - if their owners spend time to play/train/engage them in the hours they are not crated. I think there are just as many people that keep their dogs “loose” and never exercise them, train them, or stimulate them mentally.

It’s not about the crate. It’s about the owner and what is done during the day.

This thread is getting ridiculous.

Exactly this.
Sheilah

[Anne_FS]

Yes, “exactly this” that there are different forms of neglect. Well, duh.

But that’s not what’s under discussion here. The original question is:

"When did crating your dog become the norm and when did it become so prevalent?

"To me, you get a dog and you deal with everything that comes with it, barfs, hair, occasional accident and unauthorized use of the couch while the master is out. And those who cant deal with it didn’t get dogs. [and I guess dogs that were incontinent were PTS]

What changed?"

And that’s what’s being discussed here, so this is not ridiculous.

[IdahoRider]

@Anne FS;7606239

Yes, that’s the point that a number of people here, Sswor for instance (and others, including me) are making: crating is the management tool, as Sswor said, for a lot of dog owners. The rest of us TRAINED THE DOG. There will always be the incorrigibles, esp. today when poor Foofy-woofy is poorly bred and left untrained and, as you say, owned by idiots. But the basic decent dog can be trained to behave, and if the owners would only take the trouble to do that and also take the trouble to exercise fully - no once-around-the-block crap - their dogs, they would be astounded at how little trouble the dogs get into. But they don’t. The dogs are alone all day and the owner comes home, lets them out to potty, makes dinner, and plunks down in front of the tv or computer. No wonder Fido is bored out of his skull.

Training also gives mental stimulation, which makes for a more mentally fit, relaxed dog beyond the training.

I totally disagree with your premise that if you “TRAIN THE DOG” crating won’t be necessary. I train my dogs. Not just basic obedience but sheep herding, tracking, agility. I go way beyond the average pet owner. One of my dogs is almost 8 years old now and he HAS to be crated if he can’t be supervised. It has nothing to do with his level of training and everything to do with his basic temperament and personality. I would be a grossly negligent owner if I left him loose in the house to damage my other two dogs. And I would be a grossly negligent neighbor if I left him out in the yard when we weren’t home, to bark and bother my neighbors. He is trained. He is titled. But he still needs to be crated.

I am not saying that leaving a dog crated most of the time, without some physical outlet in the form of exercise and training (which brings with it the mental stimulation that ALL dogs need), is a good thing. But honestly, the number of people who keep their dogs crated all the time and DON’T also actively train and exercise are such a small minority that to use them as a reason not to at least crate train or responsibly use a crate is ridiculous. Especially when you consider that the vast majority of checked-out dog owners are feeling a-okay about how they keep their bored, under exercised, under-socialized and untrained dog simply because they have provided a fenced yard to move around in, or a shady tree to be tied to.

That is all I am saying.
Sheilah

[IdahoRider]

@Anne FS;7606266

Yes, “exactly this” that there are different forms of neglect. Well, duh.

But that’s not what’s under discussion here. The original question is:

"When did crating your dog become the norm and when did it become so prevalent?

"To me, you get a dog and you deal with everything that comes with it, barfs, hair, occasional accident and unauthorized use of the couch while the master is out. And those who cant deal with it didn’t get dogs. [and I guess dogs that were incontinent were PTS]

What changed?"

And that’s what’s being discussed here, so this is not ridiculous.

What changed? I commented on that several pages ago. I think training became more accessible to the average pet owner. As more people started to train their dogs, more people came into contact with people who used crates effectively (the breeders and competitors who ran those training classes). I grew up in a dog show home and crates were used by everyone in the fancy.

I also agree with the idea that someone else shared, that as more and more families had both parents working outside of the house, more and more dog owners needed to find an alternative to having an adult int he home all day and available to house train and supervise.

Those things are big drivers of “change” in how we keep our pet dogs.

I can’t speak to someone crating because they don’t want to deal with barf, hair, the occasional accident and unauthorized use of the couch. I do think that yes, back in the dark ages (before vet care became as good as it has become, with huge strides made in diagnostic ability), an incontinent dog was more likely to die of the underlying cause of the incontinence than it was to be cured, or even relegated to a crate for convenience sake.

Having worked with pet dog owners for many, many years? I can promise you that far more people end up sticking their dogs outside to live 24/7 for convenience than end up crating for 23/7 for convenience. Neither of those choices are good, and each carries their own bag of problems.
Sheilah

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7606239]
Yes, that’s the point that a number of people here, Sswor for instance (and others, including me) are making: crating is the management tool, as Sswor said, for a lot of dog owners. The rest of us TRAINED THE DOG. There will always be the incorrigibles, esp. today when poor Foofy-woofy is poorly bred and left untrained and, as you say, owned by idiots. But the basic decent dog can be trained to behave, and if the owners would only take the trouble to do that and also take the trouble to exercise fully - no once-around-the-block crap - their dogs, they would be astounded at how little trouble the dogs get into. But they don’t. The dogs are alone all day and the owner comes home, lets them out to potty, makes dinner, and plunks down in front of the tv or computer. No wonder Fido is bored out of his skull.

Training also gives mental stimulation, which makes for a more mentally fit, relaxed dog beyond the training.[/QUOTE]

LOL

Yes, all dogs should be trained. But come on, you honestly think every dog can be “trained” to be left unsupervised in the house for hours at a time?

Not everyone is a lazy, idiot owner. I certainly am not; my dogs get tons of physical and mental exercise…way more than average. But they are a smart and highly energetic breed – and yes, a handful. No way would I have left my young dogs loose in my house all day long. Even now, at ages 4, 8, and 13, they are confined to one room if I am not home. And, they are well-socialized, exceptionally bred dogs, for what it’s worth – but the reality is that if they were easy-going couch potatoes, they wouldn’t make very good hunting dogs, would they?

[Nezzy]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7606239]
Yes, that’s the point that a number of people here, Sswor for instance (and others, including me) are making: crating is the management tool, as Sswor said, for a lot of dog owners. The rest of us TRAINED THE DOG. There will always be the incorrigibles, esp. today when poor Foofy-woofy is poorly bred and left untrained and, as you say, owned by idiots. But the basic decent dog can be trained to behave, and if the owners would only take the trouble to do that and also take the trouble to exercise fully - no once-around-the-block crap - their dogs, they would be astounded at how little trouble the dogs get into. But they don’t. The dogs are alone all day and the owner comes home, lets them out to potty, makes dinner, and plunks down in front of the tv or computer. No wonder Fido is bored out of his skull.

Training also gives mental stimulation, which makes for a more mentally fit, relaxed dog beyond the training.[/QUOTE]

How exactly does one train a dog not to eat a sofa? I think i’d like to know that. most young Labradors will eat sofas. Would it be a bad thing to crate one for a few hours while you are gone, or better for the dog to eat the sofa and get an impaction?

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;7606239]
The rest of us TRAINED THE DOG. There will always be the incorrigibles, esp. today when poor Foofy-woofy is poorly bred and left untrained and, as you say, owned by idiots. But the basic decent dog can be trained to behave, and if the owners would only take the trouble to do that and also take the trouble to exercise fully - no once-around-the-block crap - their dogs, they would be astounded at how little trouble the dogs get into. But they don’t. The dogs are alone all day and the owner comes home, lets them out to potty, makes dinner, and plunks down in front of the tv or computer. No wonder Fido is bored out of his skull.

Training also gives mental stimulation, which makes for a more mentally fit, relaxed dog beyond the training.[/QUOTE]

My heart ACD would snatch my food off the table in record time. However he would also sit in the cab of the truck all dang day and not touch an unwrapped sandwich sitting on the dash. He firmly believed his “job” was to watch the truck and he was so focused. But for whatever reason I could never train that to a watc the house behavior. Sometimes I hate smart dogs…

[jetsmom]

[QUOTE=Nezzy;7606382]
How exactly does one train a dog not to eat a sofa? I think i’d like to know that. most young Labradors will eat sofas. Would it be a bad thing to crate one for a few hours while you are gone, or better for the dog to eat the sofa and get an impaction?[/QUOTE]

I think that’s why young Labs are called “Labigators” … Everything gets put in their mouth.

[rainyday]

I honestly can’t imagine not crating my dog. She’s a 4 yo, 100 lb berner. Our breeder recommended crate training, our trainer recommended crate training, and I’m glad they did. When she was a puppy, it helped her sleep through the night and not pee/poop in the house. Now, it’s her “safe spot” where she goes to sleep or be alone. When we really need her to not eat/destroy anything, she goes outside with plenty of water and her bed in a shady place, but never overnight. As for when it became the norm, I would guess around the time of the internet.

[Pipkin]

It’s the same as stabling a horse.

I’m not keen on either, but sometimes needs must.

[Horsegal984]

Just another story, this time about my female ACD. That smarty pants has learned that if DH gets up and leaves in the morning with DD it’s because I’m still at work (I work third shift). DD does not go with DH on days when I’m home.
How did I learn that she knows this? Because she absolutely will not counter surf if I’m home. So one morning for whatever reason DH was taking DD to pre-school in the morning even though I was home and in bed. Because of the fosters we had all the dogs were sleeping in the kitchen. I hear DH &DD leave, hear his key turn in the lock, less than 30 seconds later the crash of a pot being pulled off the stove! Flew out of bed and flung open the bedroom door, the look on that dogs face! She couldn’t have looked more guilty or confused all at the same time. I could hardly stop laughing.

We manage our house to where our dogs are rarely crated at home. However depending on the foster we have anywhere from 1-3 crates set up in the kitchen at a time. We use them more for separating during feeding times than anything, but some fosters need more time than others to adjust to strange dogs and a new environment so I will crate fosters as needed to avoid injuries (from whatever source).

[LauraKY]

I absolutely can not believe that you all are still arguing over this. Why can’t some of you accept that there might not be one right way to train/raise a dog?

[cowboymom]

REALLY, LauraKY? You that goes on and on and on arguing politics, social issues and misc on the OT board and you’re going to scold these folks for arguing about training issues a minute longer than you think they should? Careful your glass house doesn’t get shattered, there! :lol:

[PiedPiper]

I have two dogs, a 4 year old and a just turned 1 year old. The 1 year old is crated when not home. We are working on giving him freedom but we want him to be successful and not since everything goes in his mouth still, he is limited. So he is crated every night and when we are gone. BUT most days either someone is home or they go to doggie day care. Today he will be crated 6 hours while I am gone but got a walk in this morning and will go to the farm and run around this afternoon. As soon as he gets more mature he will be allowed to have run of the house.

It also gives our other dog a break from him as he is HIGH energy and loves to play and is over 80 lbs. He gets a treat stuffed kong whenever in a crate and will put himself to bed in his upstairs crate if he is tired.

The older one seems to have had some bad experiences in a crate (they are both rescues) so she is not crated and doesn’t need it.

I don’t see anything wrong, like with most things, if crating is done in moderation and exercise and interaction are balanced out. We can’t wait to get rid of the baby gates and the crates in the future. We are banking on one more year with him until then! lol

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=cowboymom;7610562]
REALLY, LauraKY? You that goes on and on and on arguing politics, social issues and misc on the OT board and you’re going to scold these folks for arguing about training issues a minute longer than you think they should? Careful your glass house doesn’t get shattered, there! :lol:[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I’m talking about. I see a bleed over to other forums from Off Topic. I’m curious how my opinions on OT have something to do with this forum though.

[Brookes]

One of my setters sleeps in a crate every single night. The others all manage to sleep on their beds at night. This one has decided that she is special and must sleep with her humans no matter what. Solution, huge crate taking up a large portion of our bedroom. Is it cruel, no. Is it a lack of training? Nope, is it a contrary bitch trying to have things her way? Yup!

Crating or leaving dogs in a run during the day for short periods of time is for the protection of the animal. I love my girls and don’t want to see them hurt in any way.

Dogs are stupid! They will eat something that will make them deathly ill, or cost you thousands in surgical fees to remove it from their guts! To keep my ladies safe they are restricted in their freedoms unless they are fully supervised by one of us.

All youngsters start out in crates and x-pens in our household. It saves my home from needless destruction and saves the pups from killing and maiming themselves. Did I mention dogs are stupid? lol! It also prepares them for extended crating during dog shows. They are relaxed and safe in their crates.

If you don’t want to crate, fine do not crate. Should your dog require a lengthy stay at the vets office it could seriously effect their recovery if they are stressed out being caged/crated. Better to prepare a dog for a possible crate stay when they are young and reinforce the training throughout their lives.

There are people out there that abuse animals in horrific ways; crating a dog for periods of time is not one of them.

[LauraKY]

[QUOTE=cowboymom;7610562]
REALLY, LauraKY? You that goes on and on and on arguing politics, social issues and misc on the OT board and you’re going to scold these folks for arguing about training issues a minute longer than you think they should? Careful your glass house doesn’t get shattered, there! :lol:[/QUOTE]

This is exactly what I’m talking about…nasty bleed over from Off Topic. Are you proud of yourself?

[cowboymom]

Are you? Who are you to come in here and tell other people when to stop talking?

Tell me why you can debate endlessly on any topic and then come in here and tell others when to stop. And why in the world area you blaming me for some sort of bleed over when your own behavior is what caught my attention- is this topic deemed unacceptable to you past a certain point? I’ve read your posts all over this board and you talk until you see fit so please tell me why you can tell other people they’ve talked too long? If you come into pretty much any thread on Coth and berate the participants for “still going on” you had damn sure better be succinct in your other posts, which you are not.

“this is exactly what I’m talking about” nasty bleedover… are YOU proud of YOURSELF? I hope not but I’m sure you are.

[RHdobes563]

My cousin crates her Labrador Retriever when family members are not home. Gizmo has been trained, competed, and titled in Obedience, Agility, Rally, Crating, and Water Rescue. In fact, this morning, they are supposed to be working on advanced Water Rescue work. In addition, I believe tracking and nosework is in the future. Although she has a fenced-in yard, long walks through nature center trails nearby are the norm for Gizmo. Despite this, her dining room table and at least one chair bear chewing scars.

I got my first adult Doberman (and first dog EVER) from the animal shelter 20 years ago. After a couple of weeks, he was totally trustworthy in the house, both for housebreaking and destructive behavior (never exhibited any of the last). When we bought a 3-month old puppy, my lack of experience was apparent. Kira broke her leg in the house while we were gone and left loose, she disemboweled a sofa (same), and took 18 months to housebreak. Once I was TOLD about crating, she became housebroken quickly. On the other hand, I did not trust her to leave the furniture alone, and I was divorced then, so I decided to crate her when not home.

I also had a male Doberman that hated another male. Although at that time, I had four male Dobermans, a male Peekapoo, a female Sheltie, and the above female Doberman, Garnet hated Moose with a passion. Moose was the sweetest dog I have ever owned. Although Moose had a very high prey drive, any animal brought into the house (and at the time, I was doing dog and cat rescue on my own) was, in Moose’s mind, strictly OFF-LIMITS. So why Garnit hated Moose particularly and not my alpha male Dante’ nor the other males, I dunno other than Garnet was exhibiting ‘breed specific’ behavior. I might have re-homed Garnet but when I got him he was completely unsocialized, challenged ME from the beginning, and took a year to decide I was ‘okay’ despite me taking him to obedience classes from the beginnning. I simply could not risk him being placed with someone who would be intimidated by him. So, he was crated when I was not home.

Moose was a counter surfer. In fact, he took a steak out of a hot oven once and ate it while I was on the phone. When I had only two Dobermans, male and female, they were trustworthy in the house. EXCEPT that the female had a very high prey drive. I had cats. When I was home, Tuppence would show moderate interest in the cats, but the cats would get on counters, cat tree, or go though the cat door into the basement. EXCEPT the day when Tuppence managed to chase one of my rescued cats (declawed in front—I didn’t do it) into the bathroom, managed to slam both doors shut, and killed Ismeowl. Tuppence was crated from that moment on when I was not home.

I have had a number of dogs during and between the above. All have been ‘crate-trained’ because, at dog shows (I have multi-titled most of my dogs in AKC, UKC, and ASCA obedience), they frown on letting your dogs run loose at the shows. And just SOMETIMES, dogs are not allowed in certain areas, bathrooms and the like. And I don’t like to leave a dog in a hot/cold car during those times. (Funny, all of my dogs have been good, left alone in a car.) So it’s nice to know that my dogs understand “crate” and wouldn’t put up a fuss if left in one.

I have a new dog who shows potential couch-eating and is definitely a counter surfer. Anything that she can reach at her level, with either 4 feet or 2 feet on the ground, is currently considered a “dog toy” in her mind, so she is crated in the mornings and afternoons when I am at work. (I come home for lunch.) I am hoping to eventually move everything up out of her reach so she can be kept in the kitchen. My other dog is left loose when I am not home. Generally, he spends the day, I suspect, sleeping on my bed like he is doing right now.

On the other hand, I let my dogs on the furniture, and they sleep with me. I buy older furniture so I don’t worry about expensive stuff—it’s easily and cheaply replaceable.

When I got my first dog, I thought the correct thing to do was to put up an outside kennel for a dog. But within an hour of getting Dante’, I changed my mind. I could do it now or let my dogs ‘run loose’ in my fenced-in backyard, but in the years since I got my first dog, I have had kids tease my dogs, throw broken glass over the fence, bring other dogs by to taunt them, and yell at my dogs (because my dogs were barking at them). Unfortunately for my dogs, I live VERY close to a high school, and the students like to walk down the alley behind my yard. And there have been instances of people trying to steal dogs (not mine, but my neighbor’s), and I won’t risk that.

If a person can train a dog to be perfect in the house under all circumstances, great! My mileage has varied, though, and I see nothing wrong with the way my dogs and I live.

Sorry for the overly long-post.