[QUOTE=Casey09;7605486]
Most are kept in runs when they aren’t being actively trained, as they would harass the stock if they were left loose all day.[/QUOTE]
A run is not a crate. A dog can move in a run. It can’t move much in a crate.
[QUOTE=Anne FS;7605564]
A run is not a crate. A dog can move in a run. It can’t move much in a crate.[/QUOTE]
I do agree, but these were pretty small runs. My point was that high drive dogs, even in a working environment, aren’t necessarily running around all of the time. I absolutely agree that excessive crating, for many hours, isn’t a good thing. Anytime a dog is spending most of the time in a crate, there is problem with stimulation, both physical and mental. High drive dogs, though, often cannot run around all of the time. At hunting dog kennels, as well, the dogs are primarily kept in kennel runs. They do have more space than they would in a crate, but they aren’t exactly free to run around at liberty.
People got educated!
When I was young we knew very little about saddle fit - one saddle was slung on all horses… we didn’t think of bit pinch or teeth when a horse misbehaved. When did that change? Same answer! When we got more educated! That’s all.
It’s not a place to shove your dog, when a dog is raised they think of the kennel as their den, their safe place. It’s a very good way to housebreak without scolding.
My dogs were all in a crate for a little while until we got to know them, but as adults their housebreaking took just a day or two. They now have run of the house all day, even if we’re both gone. They’re super good dogs, no chew, no potty, no messes anywhere. Yep, we’re just that lucky with dogs. 
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7605012]
What is the argument here? That loose in a fenced in yard is better? Tied out is better? Loose in an unfenced yard? Loose in the house?
I don’t see much difference in the dog’s fulfillment between crating 23.5hrs a day, tying out 23.5hrs a day, or loose in the backyard 23.5hrs a day. When is the physical exercise, mental stimulation, training, socialization, exposure, healthcare and grooming being met? I do see a difference in safety.
I do not condone restricting a dog’s body and mind 23.5hrs a day, unless required medically.[/QUOTE]
Wow. Just wow. If you are a dog “expert,” I would NEVER have a dog that had anything to do with you. Really? You see NO difference between crating, tying, or loose in the yard? That sounds just like the nut breeders I know (cats, not dogs) who justify kittens are “happy” growing up in cages. There is a HUGE difference.
And I NEVER said anything about ever leaving a dog alone 23 hours a day. I never said anyone crates 23 hours a day, either. (THAT is call the humane society abuse.) I said people who regularly crate 6-10 hours every day and say their dogs “love” their crate are bad.
Of COURSE dogs should have a job, especially WORKING dogs, which are NOT appropriate for people who live in a situation where they can’t do their job. If their job is to run a lot, they need a LOT of exercise. If their job is to work, they need a lot of obedience and things to do. If their job is to be a lap pet, they need to be petted.
The argument here is crating for extended hours regularly is unacceptable. Other than that, combinations of yard, house, exercise, sitting on your lap, obedience work, road trips, riding with horses, or whatever is appropriate for the dog.
My dogs (Beagle and Kelpie) have a yard to patrol and people to bark at, various places to lay in the sun, house time with pillows and chairs, no crates, car rides, go on trail rides at the barn, go on road trips with me, go on walks around home, etc. At no time have they spent any time in closed crate, though the Beagle likes to sleep in the open one on the porch sometimes.
My (now 13 year old) Labrador was crate trained as a puppy. He was out and about in the house in close proximity to me (or when I was in school, my mom) and when neither of us was home he was crated, in an appropriately sized crate. By the time his teething stage was over, we left the crate door open and a baby gate up in the (large) laundry room and he had the run of that room when no one was home.
By about 18 months old he had the run of the kitchen and by 2 or 2.5 years, the run of the house while everyone was gone with no issues. I kept him very well exercised (he was my running training buddy for half marathons) so generally if he was home alone he just found someplace cozy and slept. I honestly think many dogs “need” to be crated because they are under-exercised. My dog is fantastic and was even as a youngster, but people were always surprised when I explained just how much physical activity was necessary on a daily basis to ensure that good behavior. If not appropriately exercised - if I was too sick for our usual long runs for a few days it was evident that he was trying so hard to be good and would try to sit when you asked but would just kind of hover because he was so absolutely bursting with energy. I firmly believe that a tired lab is a well behaved lab!
Using a gradual approach to gradually giving him more freedom while no one was home worked out really well and I plan to do the same with my next dog.
I have a couple of friends who crate adult dogs, but only in situations where the dog’s health is at stake, for example, a friend’s lab will eat random objects like couch cushions, plastic dishware, loose change, etc. when left alone even if provided with a variety of appropriate dog toys. In a situation like that, I absolutely would crate or otherwise confine an adult dog to a “safe” area.
[QUOTE=Casey09;7605605]
My point was that high drive dogs, even in a working environment, aren’t necessarily running around all of the time. I absolutely agree that excessive crating, for many hours, isn’t a good thing… At hunting dog kennels, as well, the dogs are primarily kept in kennel runs. They do have more space than they would in a crate, but they aren’t exactly free to run around at liberty.[/QUOTE]
Agree with you. Don’t think working dogs should be running around loose all the time anyway. That’s not good for them, as you seem to know very well. They shouldn’t be free to run at liberty all the time if they are working dogs, but the runs are better than the crates for “living.”
There is nothing wrong with crating - as opposed to kenneling - prior to a training session. In fact, that’s a good thing.
The two dogs I have now are the only ones that I have crated. All my other dogs had free rein of the house and were fine, but these two it’s not worth the risk. It’s not right or fair to allow them to be in situations where they can cause self harm. So for the debate of to crate or not to crate, really depends on the dog, since each dog is different and as owners we need to make sure they’re safe at all times.
So yes some need it others don’t. To each his own. No need to judge and say what is right and what is wrong. Yes it would be so much easier if they were all the same and followed the same manual, but they’re individuals with their own personalities, minds, and quirks, so we need treat them that way.
spotted–To be clear, I’m not judging you at all. I’m stunned at Bicoastal, though.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;7605737]
I’m stunned at Bicoastal, though.[/QUOTE]
You are looking to be offended.
She is not saying that crating 23/7 is good; but that it’s one of many types of neglect - just as keeping a dog perpetually kenneled or tied to a doghouse and totally devoid of human interaction is also a form of neglect.
I think that there are probably many dogs that are crated half their day - or more - and live absolutely fabulous dog lives - if their owners spend time to play/train/engage them in the hours they are not crated. I think there are just as many people that keep their dogs “loose” and never exercise them, train them, or stimulate them mentally.
It’s not about the crate. It’s about the owner and what is done during the day.
This thread is getting ridiculous.
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7605012]
I don’t see much difference in the dog’s fulfillment between crating 23.5hrs a day, tying out 23.5hrs a day, or loose in the backyard 23.5hrs a day.[/QUOTE]
Nope. I’m stunned that someone can say this.
[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;7605820]
Nope. I’m stunned that someone can say this.[/QUOTE]
They all suck, that’s the point.
OK, fine, 24/7 confinement would probably be worse than being a feral dog in the backyard 24/7.
But since no one here is talking about any of these things…this is just a stupid discussion.
Not saying crating is the new norm or best practice for all dogs everywhere
[QUOTE=Anne FS;7605094]
You see no difference between a dog confined to a cage big enough to only stand up and turn around in and a dog who can move around at will? No difference? Wow.
I don’t know where you came up with 23.5 hours a day,[/QUOTE]
I’ll try to explain. I’m tired of getting beat up over this since I’m currently at the office and my dogs are home not in crates :lol:.
In my experience, there are dogs that wait at the backdoor immediately after they go to the bathroom, and dogs that say “see ya!” I suspect the latter would find a way to leave confinement if left alone for 8hrs.
I did an experiment, since I’m house-sitting for a friend. I turned my dogs loose in the large grassy fenced backyard and went inside. Bonus for the boys, this place is novel and smells of the resident dogs. They did not sniff, explore, wander, roll in the grass, sunbathe, or hunt for squirrels. They stood at the back door.
After Joey felt he stood long enough, he barked*. I varied my position to within eyesight, out of sight, and standing outside with them. In desperation, I scattered treats in the grass, got them hunting for said treats, then slipped back inside. They ran to the door again, foregoing food! :eek:
I came up with 23.5hrs because 1) I estimated it may take 30mins to feed, fill water, and scoop the poop for a dog kenneled or staked.
and 2) Many posters stated a too large portion of dog owners crate during the work day, crate in the evening when they won’t make time or energy for the dog, then crate again overnight.
I do not know ANY staked or kenneled dog that is/was walked, trained, socialized, groomed, or brought inside unless there is/was a blizzard. I believe having the dog in the house automatically increases human-dog interaction because it is easier for the human.
*Nuisance barking is a problem if you have neighbors. If my dogs were happy to be alone outside for 8hrs while I’m away at work, I would worry about barking, poisoning, weather, teasing, escape, and theft. If I lived in a more rural area with no neighbors within earshot or eyesight, I’d only worry about weather, escape, theft, and wildlife.
[QUOTE=S1969;7605792]
She is not saying that crating 23/7 is good; but that it’s one of many types of neglect - just as keeping a dog perpetually kenneled or tied to a doghouse and totally devoid of human interaction is also a form of neglect.[/QUOTE] Yes, that is what I’m trying to say and you said it much more concisely! I believe crating the majority of the day can be just as neglectful as kenneling or tying outdoors devoid of interaction. I suspect many indoor crated dogs receive more interaction than outdoor dogs.
[QUOTE=S1969;7605926]They all suck, that’s the point. [/QUOTE]:yes:
[QUOTE=Sswor;7605122]
I also know plenty of people who crate all day and all night. It’s the favorite management technique of working professional dog owners. [/QUOTE] I do not know any dog pros who crate all day and all night. The dog pros I personally know (3 vets, 1 agility trainer, 1 pet trainer, 1 OB judge, 2 OB trainers, 3 dogwalkers, 1 daycare owner) don’t have 9 - 5 jobs so their dogs are with them ~20 hrs a day.
Oh I just realized maybe “working professional dog owners” meant people with office jobs who own dogs. What are you suggesting is better? I’m not implying crating is the best. I’d like to hear your other management options for suburban or city dogs.
[QUOTE=S1969;7605792]
You are looking to be offended.
She is not saying that crating 23/7 is good; but that it’s one of many types of neglect - just as keeping a dog perpetually kenneled or tied to a doghouse and totally devoid of human interaction is also a form of neglect.
I think that there are probably many dogs that are crated half their day - or more - and live absolutely fabulous dog lives - if their owners spend time to play/train/engage them in the hours they are not crated. I think there are just as many people that keep their dogs “loose” and never exercise them, train them, or stimulate them mentally.
It’s not about the crate. It’s about the owner and what is done during the day.
This thread is getting ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Right, ridiculous is the word.:lol:
If someone doesn’t like using crates, there is no law that tells them they have to.
If it is someone’ else’s dog, it is none of their business, really, if others chose to use crates for their dogs.
How to use crates, that is a different conversation.
OF COURSE someone can abuse a crate, no one wants that.:rolleyes:
That is not USING a crate, for those so set against crates.:no:
[QUOTE=S1969;7605792]
You are looking to be offended…
<snip>
This thread is getting ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
It certainly is.
[QUOTE=Sswor;7603320]
It doesn’t take 6 months with that method. Of course when you’re showering you just shut the bathroom door and drop the leash. But otherwise, no it’s not necessarily convenient but very little about raising a puppy is convenient. Convenient puppy raising is probably an oxymoron.[/QUOTE]
wow I wish someone would tell our 9 month old English bulldog it doesn’t take that long LOL…if I drop the leash while showering he will take apart the towel rack, the trash, and eat the rug. Possibly all at once and without noise :lol:
PS. He LOVES his crate! Well after he ate the tray he does… he gets his most specialist toy of the day there and dashes in to hang out while Mom has to do something other than deal with him at that moment. And our yard is fenced, he digs out. Little turd, but boy do I love him!
I grew up with a Golden Retreiver who spent more time in a crate than he should have. Thankfully my parents have come a long way in their dog ownership since then! At 5-13 years I didn’t get much say even if I had known better then. My point is for those who don’t believe a dog can actually LIKE their crate.
Well before the storm warnings or we saw the clouds Alex would go to the garage door and start whining/pawing. It was his “gotta pee” signal so we’d grab the leash, open the door and he’d race full speed… Into his crate in the garage! He would refuse to come out until after the storm had passed. Then he’d come paw at the door to come back in.
While his life certainly wasn’t ideal he felt comfortable and secure in his crate.
Yes, I mean just as bad. Not in the same way, of course. But the problems experienced by suburban dogs that live outside with little direction from owners can be just as bad for the welfare of the dog as those dogs that are crated too long.
Although there are a lot of dogs that can “handle” being unsupervised in a house or a yard and never experience a problem, there are more dogs that do experience problems in those scenarios. They are destructive in the house. I have seen entire sofas that were chewed down to the wooden frame in the space of an afternoon. I have seen huge holes chewed and clawed into drywall. I have seen horrible, fatal fights between resident dogs that were left alone and unsupervised in the home.
I have also seen dogs surrendered to shelters because they barked too much while left outside unsupervised. I have seen thousands of dollars in damage to landscaping because a bored, active dog was left outside. I have seen dead dogs who were hung by their collars while left tied outside unsupervised. I have seen dogs shot and killed (or left to run off injured) by neighbors when a dog got out of a yard.
The common theme for all of those situations were people who meant well, but didn’t know what they were doing. They thought providing a big fenced yard was being a responsible owner. And they were horrified to learn that despite all that room the dog wasn’t running laps and “exercising”. The sofa eating dog? Surrendered to a shelter. The owner refused to even entertain the idea of using a crate because they didn’t believe in “caging” a pet. The dog that died hung up? Was tied out because it couldn’t be trusted in the house, escaped the fenced yard and the owner didn’t feel they had the room to set up a crate. So they tied it up in the back yard. It had enough rope to jump the fence, but not enough to reach the ground on the other side.
There is nothing inherently better about giving your dog “room to move around”. And I have personally seen more dogs lose their homes or their lives because the owners thought that “room to move around” covered all their bases than I have seen dogs who were crate trained lose their homes or their lives.
A crate, responsibly used, is a great tool. Like any tool, if you’re an idiot, it isn’t going to work very well for you. Or if you misunderstand it’s uses.
Sheilah
[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7605997]
I did an experiment, since I’m house-sitting for a friend. I turned my dogs loose in the large grassy fenced backyard and went inside. Bonus for the boys, this place is novel and smells of the resident dogs. They did not sniff, explore, wander, roll in the grass, sunbathe, or hunt for squirrels. They stood at the back door. [/QUOTE]
Okay, you’re obviously not a scientist. 
Your particular dogs in a strange home wanted to stick by you and not go off by themselves. Lots of dogs do this. “Where are we? Why am I here? What’s Mom doing? I better not let her out my sight.” Not a valid “experiment” by any means.
Secondly, you cannot extrapolate the behavior of your own pets in a strange house to the normal behavior of all dogs, or even of the dogs that live in that house. Experiment fail.
You don’t know ANY dog who spends time outside who gets any attention from humans? Wow. There are thousands of dogs who spend time in a kennel while their owners are at work, and when the owners come home the dog(s) come out of the kennel and join in the family life or go for walks, get trained, groomed, socialized, and all the rest of it. Outdoor kennel during the day can mean, but in no way does mean, that the dog never gets human attention. And if the poor thing is that neglected, still better to be in the kennel than locked in a cage or airline crate in the house and could well be in a room away from where the family is.
