Crating dogs..when did this become the norm?

[Beentheredonethat]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7604060]
Today, most households are empty as both parents work and children are at school or daycare. Yesteryear, there were more housewives home during the day, more small farms, and more dogs permitted to roam neighborhoods.

That video is of a professional, successful dog sports trainer and breeder.

I don’t know any dogs who adequately self-exercise by running around the yard.[/QUOTE]

If you have a household like that and want a dog, get a dog APPROPRIATE for that environment who will thrive and be OK. It’s NOT OK to get a high energy dog and try to make it sit quietly all day long. There are plenty of breeds happy to do that.

That “professional breeder and trainer” is an ass. If he knew anything about dogs, he would not be trying to keep a “high drive” puppy in a 3 foot round fenced area inside his house entertained. Obviously that puppy would have been running around the yard playing, hopefully with another dog, as is appropriate for that breed or temperament.

I worked with guard dogs for awhile. In one case in the training facility, we purposely “crated” to teach dogs potty training. It should be a process tom work certain things through, not a lifestyle.

It takes no time to look up breeds that don’t need to be crated to keep you them from destroying your house: http://www.dogguide.net/10-apartment-dogs.php
http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/characteristics/adapts-well-to-apartment-living

[oliverreed]

I hate to tell you this, BTDT, but ThreeDogs and Bicoastal are dog experts. They’ve done a LOT more with dogs han you have.

[Beentheredonethat]

OK. The point is? You think that because they are “experts” that it makes it OK to take a dog meant to be out and moving and force it into an environment that doesn’t suit it?

As an “expert” you should know the appropriate environment for the appropriate dog. I am an expert on evil Beagles. Mine is 15 and never gotten better. I would NEVER crate him up to prevent him from doing something natural to him. I have him in an environment that works with him and keeps him out of trouble, but I don’t lock him up.

[cloudyandcallie]

It’s been the norm among breeders for a long time. When Pat Klausman, the great dog trainer in Atlanta, explained crating to me many decades ago, I explained to her that while I was at work, my aussies were “laying up” in my bed in the air conditioning.

I understand crating, but I don’t do it. My dogs didn’t go in the garbage, they didn’t set fire to the house, etc. They did occasionally tear up one of their own stuffed animals, and Kippy did take down the ornaments on the Christmas tree one year, and Santa’s reindeer had 2 or 3 legs each, but it was nothing major. And they never could get the dust ruffle to come off of the bed even when 3 dogs would be pulling on it. I wouldn’t crate mine for 8 hours (more like 12 hours when I was on trial) while at work. Heck, people thought I was bad to keep mine in the house even with a fenced yard, since I didn’t want the dog thieves to come steal them and sell them for $50 to Emory/VA Hospital for experimentation. And on the plus side, I was never burglarized in over 20 yrs in Atlanta. Who’d break into a house with 3 dogs and 3 cats lunging at the doors and windows?

[Anne_FS]

Count me in as one who thinks crate training is good and necessary, but that crate “training” now for far too many dogs means their reality is that they live most of their entire life in a crate. It’s in there from the time people leave for work until they get home, which for many people is the time span of 7am - 6pm, and then, what really blows my mind, is the number of people who tell me their dogs are crated while they (the people) sleep! I don’t like that at all.

It’s crated when the people go out to dinner or to the movies or shopping or running errands, too, so the ratio of time out of vs. time in a crate is very small.

Sure, dogs will willingly enter their crates. That’s because they’re dogs and good little souls. Mine, too, will go nap in a crate with the door left open, but that’s far different than being locked in there.

[Beentheredonethat]

The norm doesn’t make things right. It’s the norm for many horse people to keep them in stalls 23 hours a day. Is that right? It’s the norm for many breeders, cats and dogs, to raise animals in small cages. Is that right?

I have no problem with crating to teach things or in certain circumstances, but making it the norm to spend much of their lives in a small box? Really?

If you need to crate a dog to control circumstances, maybe you should find the right circumstances for that dog and find one who can live with what you have.

And, as useless as Beagles are as attack dogs, I’ve never had a break in in my house because he sounds like the hounds from Hell when he baa whooos, and I have some serious attack cats doing duty, too. Because of where I live, I want a dog barking at the back and side fence, which can be accessed by anyone.

[paulaedwina]

To me there’s a difference between crating and caging. I didn’t get dogs to cage them, but I think that crate training is awesome. Like trailering, I think it’s a great skill for your dog to have in the event it needs to be moved, housed, or hospitalized. I use crates to integrate animals into my household, and to house train, but do not routinely crate dogs. I have seen situations where people cage dogs -I mean they’e crated more than they’re out. That’s not for me.

Paula

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;7604899]
The norm doesn’t make things right. It’s the norm for many horse people to keep them in stalls 23 hours a day. Is that right? It’s the norm for many breeders, cats and dogs, to raise animals in small cages. Is that right?

I have no problem with crating to teach things or in certain circumstances, but making it the norm to spend much of their lives in a small box? Really?.[/QUOTE]

How many people really know anyone that keeps their dogs crated all day and all night? I don’t know anyone except people on the show circuit - one major reason I would never send one of my dogs out as a special.

But other than that? I don’t know anyone. But - a puppy corral is a great thing for when you can’t supervise the puppy loose – like I’ve said already in this thread – when cooking, when showering, whatever. The video isn’t showing how to keep your puppy ALL DAY LONG, but simply showing how a very active breed can be contained safely when it’s tired and needs a nap so he doesn’t wreck the house.

My crazy puppy didn’t live in the puppy corral, but he did spend a few hours in the morning and in the afternoon in it while I was doing other things (I was home all day with kids). If I left the house, he went in his crate. At night, he slept on my head. I’m still not sure why he chose that spot.

Even still, my dogs never have the run of the house when we’re not home - they go in my bedroom (which is where they sleep at night too).

[Anne_FS]

I do. Because I started asking people.

A number of years ago a guy I worked with asked me if I crated my dogs. I said, yes, one of my beagles was very destructive and I’d come to crate him while I was at work. He was very disappointed in me. I found out that one day he gave a fellow employee a ride home from work when her car broke down and helped her carry in some groceries only to find that her 2 Dalmatians were stuffed together in one crate that was so small the dogs were literally one or top of the other. These dogs spent every work day like that. He was disgusted. Of course that was extreme. He himself had a dog that just slept on the couch when he went to work.

Anyway, he got me thinking and I started asking people about “crate training,” which is how I found out that within the past 20 years or so it has definitely become the norm to put dogs in there for almost every occasion and yes, if you ask you’ll be surprised how many crate at night too, so the dog doesn’t jump on the bed or wake them up too early or interrupt sex, etc.

The “crates are wonderful” idea has really taken hold and people bought into the “it’s his den! He loves it!” thing big time.

[Anne_FS]

Plus of course they don’t have to train.

[Bicoastal]

[QUOTE=Beentheredonethat;7604761]
That “professional breeder and trainer” is an ass. If he knew anything about dogs, he would not be trying to keep a “high drive” puppy in a 3 foot round fenced area inside his house entertained. [/QUOTE]

Just like when armchair quarterbacking Devon photos, remember what you see is a snapshot. The video you are commenting on was made to specifically illustrate the energy of the Belgian breeds, not how to raise one or manage one 24/7.

What is the argument here? That loose in a fenced in yard is better? Tied out is better? Loose in an unfenced yard? Loose in the house?

I don’t see much difference in the dog’s fulfillment between crating 23.5hrs a day, tying out 23.5hrs a day, or loose in the backyard 23.5hrs a day. When is the physical exercise, mental stimulation, training, socialization, exposure, healthcare and grooming being met? I do see a difference in safety.

I do not condone restricting a dog’s body and mind 23.5hrs a day, unless required medically.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=Bicoastal;7605012]
I don’t see much difference in the dog’s fulfillment between crating 23.5hrs a day, tying out 23.5hrs a day, or loose in the backyard 23.5hrs a day. When is the physical exercise, mental stimulation, training, socialization, exposure, healthcare and grooming being met? I do see a difference in safety.[/QUOTE]

You see no difference between a dog confined to a cage big enough to only stand up and turn around in and a dog who can move around at will? No difference? Wow.

Of course both crated & uncrated dogs need training, healthcare, etc.

@Bicoastal;7605012

I do not condone restricting a dog’s body and mind 23.5hrs a day, unless required medically.

I don’t know where you came up with 23.5 hours a day, but a dog crate all day & night as opposed to a dog being loose in the house or a secure outdoor kennel instead - well of course the former’s body is extremely restricted compared to the other dog.

A dog in a crate can do nothing but lie there and sleep or gnaw a little on its toys. If it has toys. Ever watch your dogs outside? Sure, they sleep, but they stroll around, they sniff the ground, they raise their heads and snuff the air. They toast in the sun then move to the shade to cool off. I had a beagle who loved to watch the birds. And of course they love to watch the squirrels and the neighborhood activity. MUCH more to do and feel and smell and see than locked in a dog cage.

[Sswor]

Expert or no expert, border collies used to be considered a working dog, only, until recently. They were always viewed as being way too high a drive breed to even consider trying to make one a family dog, and anyone who would was an idiot and borderline cruel, because they will go insane and it will not work out, and now suddenly, thank you Babe movie, people have them as suburban house pets. I strongly suspect it “works out” because they spend the majority of their lives in a crate.

I also know plenty of people who crate all day and all night. It’s the favorite management technique of working professional dog owners. Fortunately, there’s been a shift as of very recent that I have noticed with the advent of the economic recovery, towards doggie daycare during the work day instead of crating at home. Which I think is great, especially for single dogs.

[Sswor]

It’s nuts, people get working dogs and then expect them to be couch potatoes. Oh he chews everything up or eats everything or destroys things when left alone, he has to be crated. They get Weimherieners and Labradors and golden retrievers and plott hounds and Chesapeake bays and springer spaniels and Irish spaniels, etc etc, working, hunting dogs and wonder why they destroy the house and have to be crated. You don’t have to be an expert to understand a dog will do what it was bred for and yet there’s this certain, pervasive mindset today that any dog can do (and be) anything it’s owner wants. Bulldog run agility? Sure! And how dare you say it can’t. Oy vey.

Not everyone who crates is like this and not all destructive dogs can be “cured”, truth indeed, but I never remember some of the suburban pet breed madness years ago that I see today and I do suspect use of the crate has allowed some breeds to increase their popularity in the pet market, which was unheard of prior to the push in the dog world to encourage lay persons to use crates.

[Nezzy]

oh- i also never buy a small crate for my dogs. they have enough room to stand, turn, their food and water bowls are up front, the beds are toward the back. i never liked the idea of getting a crate just barely large enough for the dog. no matter what they say, a puppy is housebroken when their body is ready to hold it. they don’t pee in their crate unless they absolutely cannot hold it. even if the crate is slightly large, no dog wants to soil their bed. ( yes i know there are neurotic dogs that do, but they were ruined by their past circumstances.)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y246/BatHealer/mealtimefor4.jpg

[S1969]

[QUOTE=Sswor;7605122]
Expert or no expert, border collies used to be considered a working dog, only, until recently. They were always viewed as being way too high a drive breed to even consider trying to make one a family dog, and anyone who would was an idiot and borderline cruel, because they will go insane and it will not work out, and now suddenly, thank you Babe movie, people have them as suburban house pets. I strongly suspect it “works out” because they spend the majority of their lives in a crate.[/QUOTE]

The only people I’ve ever known who got a border collie as a “pet” ended up rehoming it after it chased and bit their 5 year old son. What a surprise.

I guess we could go on an on about stupid dog owners. I know some, even if they don’t crate their dog all day and all night. Crates don’t make someone a bad dog owner, but not using a crate doesn’t make someone a good one.

Most of the good dog owners I know do use crates; some every day, some occasionally, some only for shows. I can’t think of anyone that crates day and night; but I suppose there might be someone that does.

[IdahoRider]

@LauraKY;7604657

Some people crate (for good reasons) some do not (again for good reasons).

Personally, I have no problem with people who do things differently than I do. But when I see someone doing or not doing something for the wrong reasons, I feel it is important to share what I know to be true. So if someone tells me that they won’t crate train their puppy because they think it is cruel, I am going to explain how the advantages outweigh the disadvantages and how to do it so it isn’t cruel (or lazy, or whatever).

People should make their choices as informed as possible. Hanging onto erroneous information because nobody took the time to educate, or because others were worried they would offend, is not a good thing.
Sheilah

[IdahoRider]

I would like to mention that some of the most neurotic, hyper dogs I have ever seen have come out of suburban homes where they lived out in a back yard. They were untrained (“Well, we use to take him for walks, but then he got so big that he pulled and it hurt my arm”, or “Well, we use to take him for walks but he started barking at other dogs and people and it embarrassed us”), grossly underexercised (“I don’t understand it, he has a whole fenced back yard to play and run in and yet he spends all his time barking or digging up the sprinklers”), and very under-socialized (“I purposefully got a Golden Retriever because they are naturally good with everyone, but she is terrified of strangers and will pee all over herself if someone tried to pet her”).

Having a lot of room to move around, absent interaction and direction from humans, is just as bad as being crated or kenneled for 23 hours a day.
Sheilah

[Casey09]

I agree that there are breeds that are very high maintenance, and others that are lower maintenance. Border collies, I think, require an owner that wants to do things with the dog, and love herding. I know people that live in an urban area that have them and take them herding, to agility, to fly all, etc.
I also visited a lady with working border collies on a goat farm. Most are kept in runs when they aren’t being actively trained, as they would harass the stock if they were left loose all day. This was a herding expert that raises goats professionally as well as doing a lot with herding, dog training, etc. Those dogs weren’t running around free all of the time either, but they were exercising physically and mentally with the herding. A person in an urban environment, with the time and inclination, can probably also provide the physical and mental stimulation, and I’ve known many dog people who have them in urban environments - but they are able to and want to put the time in. Just having a farm and letting them run all over it isn’t really an effective way to keep a working breed either. I think they really need someone with time to spend doing things with them, not just space and freedom.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=IdahoRider;7605309]
Having a lot of room to move around, absent interaction and direction from humans, is just as bad as being crated or kenneled for 23 hours a day. [/QUOTE]

Um, just as bad? I think not. Both are horrible, but at least the backyard dog can move. The crated dog can barely do that.

Nobody here, nobody is equating dog in the yard or kennel or loose in the house while I’m at work to mean that the dog spends its life totally ignored.