Crating throughout the work day (8-10 hours)

[arabhorse2]

[QUOTE=HorsefaceDee;7176197]
If a dog is destructive it needs more exercise. Not to be crated.[/QUOTE]

Puppies are destructive regardless of how much exercise they get. Not crating them won’t make them less destructive, your personal opinion notwithstanding.

If you can be home all day and monitor them, more power to you. Some of us have to work for a living, and that means putting Destroyer Dog someplace where his destruction is kept to a minimum.

I hardly think the dog believes it’s cruel when he happily and willingly goes in the crate for me. He’s a dog; he likes structure and rules. He’ll even sleep in the crate with the door open when he doesn’t have to. That translates to a dog who thinks of his crate as a safe place, not a place where he’s tortured and confined against his will.

As far as keeping them outside in runs? Yeah, I prefer my animals inside in a climate controlled area, not outside subject to the weather.

[saje]

[QUOTE=HorsefaceDee;7176197]
I never crate my dogs. And have never crated any dog. I think it is cruel to leave a healthy dog in a crate/cage all day. I understand if they are sick or injured and need to be confined to prevent further injury. If a dog is destructive it needs more exercise. Not to be crated. JMHO[/QUOTE]

Then please explain why my dogs will voluntarily go sleep in their crates for hours at a time?

I work from home, the crates are at the other end of the house from my office. They’ll spend 4 or more hours sleeping there, it’s their safe haven.

And no, exercise doesn’t always fix problems. Sometime too much freedom is as bad as not enough freedom.

I also don’t have a problem with outdoor runs or yards IF the weather is not extreme and/or they have a way to get out of it and stay dry and comfortable. That also depends on breed/age/mental make-up.

[Anne_FS]

Because dogs are creatures of habit.

Both sides have valid points. The never-crate-because-it’s cruel side isn’t 100% right because not all of us have dogs like that, but at the same time crating has gone too far for a lot of people who just crate while they’re at work because they never spent the time training or gradually increasing “alone” time to teach the dog to behave at home, etc.

Yes, dogs willingly go into their crates to sleep because that’s their bed. Of course they go in when they can go in & out at will. That doesn’t mean they’d choose to be in there for the 10 hours we’re gone for our work days. As you said, sometimes - note, SOME times - your dog will go in there for up to 4 hours. That’s a long way from the average person’s time away from home on a work day.

[arabhorse2]

The idea is to get my puppy to the point where he’ll be allowed to access the whole house while I’m at work. He’s not there yet, so he gets crated right now.

I did the same thing with my Dane when she was a puppy. Good behavior is rewarded by more freedom. She was 2 years old before she was to the point where I could leave her alone and she wouldn’t tear things apart.

I still don’t find it ‘cruel’ for anyone whose dogs won’t ever have the run of the house when the owners aren’t home. As long as the animals are well cared for and get plenty of exercise and mental stimulus when the owners are home, I can’t consider it wrong.

I find that a lot of people with outside dogs are more negligent about that than those who have inside dogs who are crated for part of the day.

[Hulk]

Crates are not just automactically cruel. I have a crate per dog because after they are properly crate trained (which in my opinion is paramount to their lives) they can use their crate as their bedroom. One of my dogs had the thunderstorm fear thing, I always knew when one was coming because bam staight to the crate. It was a security blanket for her in times of stress, I think not letting her have it would have been cruel. We also had a dog that hated the neighbor kids. (they were brats) She would head to her kennel when they arrived. The rules were NOT to bother the dogs that crated themselves!!!
And why I think crate training is paramount to a dogs life. Well dogs would come into the clinic and when they stay guess what they go, into a kennel. I have seen dogs smashed up beyond belief that recovered because they crated so well, and I have seen dogs not so bad die because they wouldnt crate or kennel.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=arabhorse2;7176234]

As far as keeping them outside in runs? Yeah, I prefer my animals inside in a climate controlled area, not outside subject to the weather.[/QUOTE]
Yes. And subject to other bad things that can happen to a dog left outside (theft, poisoning, etc).

@Anne FS;7176249

but at the same time crating has gone too far for a lot of people who just crate while they’re at work because they never spent the time training or gradually increasing “alone” time to teach the dog to behave at home, etc.

:lol:
Clearly you have never adopted a pet with severe separation anxiety if you think it is that easy.

The irony of people thinking it is so cruel is that this dog seems much happier in her crate when no one is home.

If left loose long enough for you to do an errand that is less than an hour she will cause destruction while you are gone. Heck, she sometimes causes issues when left loose in the house while doing barn chores in the backyard. (She does not damage things when you are in the house even if you are not in the same room.)
When the humans start gathering things to leave she wants to go into her crate. When we get home from our work day and come into the house she is stretched out sleeping. Several stretches and yawns later she emerges from her crate. She does not damage her bedding or toys she has in her crate.

I have owned dogs that could be loose all day. I have owned dogs that could not be loose all day. No one size fits all with dogs or any other animal.

I do know that none of my dogs would like living outside in the weather all day. But then, I do not own breeds designed for that.

[cowboymom]

My chi wouldn’t last an hour outside in a Montana winter day but my Great Pyrenees can’t handle an hour in the house before he’s bored and too warm! :lol:

Can’t paint all dogs with the same brush, they’re even more varied than people!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7175841]
Why is an indoor kennel or X-pen with a top some how so different in your eyes than a properly sized crate?

The only difference I see is the name.

Size?
Those indoor kennels are all sizes, some the size of four big crates.

How many hours of the day are you ‘liberated’?

All I know is my dogs sleep all day in their crates and gladly run into them when we tell them to crate up.

My dog that has severe separation anxiety seems to enjoy her alone time in her crate. With out the crate she is so anxious she destroys anything and everything. I think it would be more cruel to leave her loose in the house than crated.[/QUOTE]

Our dog crates were open all day and they use them on and off thru the day and go there on their own to sleep, many times before humans go to bed and stay there all night with an open door.

BUT, they are not shut in there all their lives for 8-10 hours during the day, that is what kennels are for, I would think, indoors or outdoors, if someone has to be gone that long and a dog is not safe in a small room.
Just common sense would dictate that, other than, as already explained, if a dog is sick or has some problem and for a temporary solution.

When at dog shows, my dog will stay in her crate for hours, being taken out time and again, but back to the crate, because that is the safest place for her and she is fine with it … for the two or three days of the show, not all her life.

Not saying everyone should do that, just that is my opinion and the way I choose to manage my dogs, nothing more or less.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=HorsefaceDee;7176197]
I never crate my dogs. And have never crated any dog. I think it is cruel to leave a healthy dog in a crate/cage all day. I understand if they are sick or injured and need to be confined to prevent further injury. If a dog is destructive it needs more exercise. Not to be crated. JMHO[/QUOTE]

Not crating because you think it is cruel is not the same as not crating for the whole day.

Crate training a dog is extremely useful, and you are much less likely to find an accident in the house if a dog is confined to a small area (crate, x-pen, etc.) If you don’t mind if your dog pees in the corner of your kitchen while you are at work, that’s fine; but I would rather not have dogs use an “indoor kennel” in my house.

Crating a dog all day - that’s a different issue. Not ideal, but not the worst life ever, if the dog gets good exercise and attention before and after. I would ideally not like to leave my dogs home alone for more than 5-6 hours if possible, but that’s not very reasonable for many people. Allowing them to walk around the house while home alone isn’t really a better life…you still expect them to hold their bladder/waste, and if they are sleeping/less active it’s a lot easier for them to do that.

Dogs are very adaptable, and many of them are quite content in their crates for longer periods of time. If the crate is properly sized and the dog is properly exercised - it is not an uncomfortable situation and it keeps them from peeing in your house, keeps them from eating bad things, etc.

[Bluey]

No, crates are not cruel, they are like any other we use, some can misuse them.
There are many times in a dog’s life where knowing to stay calmly in a dog crate is to everyone’s advantage.

In our puppy classes, we teach how to get a puppy used to a crate and how to use it in the right context.
There are many reasons dogs should be used to crates, from traveling safely to spending time in a vet clinic to just sleeping thru the night and so much more.

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7176303]
Clearly you have never adopted a pet with severe separation anxiety if you think it is that easy…

I have owned dogs that could be loose all day. I have owned dogs that could not be loose all day. No one size fits all with dogs or any other animal. [/QUOTE]

That’s pretty much what I said. I specifically wrote “not all of us have dogs like that,” that we can leave alone uncrated so crating per se is therefore not cruel.

@trubandloki;7176303

I do know that none of my dogs would like living outside in the weather all day. But then, I do not own breeds designed for that.

I have one who always wants to be inside, but the others would much prefer to be out. They’re not exposed to bad weather. Fenced yard full of shade trees, but within that is a 10’ x 20’ foot run with a shade cover over 2/3 of it - sometimes they like to lie in the sun. They also have a dog house, a raised coolaroo pet bed, horse buckets full of water, and chew toys. They much prefer being outside where they can watch the birds and squirrels and lie in the sun or in the shade, or just raise their heads and snoof the smells of the neighborhood. They’re bored to tears in the house staring at the four walls all day. Except for the one who doesn’t like being outside unless I’m there. But they’re definitely the outdoor, action types.

Unfortunately, I know a lot of people who crate all day while they’re at work, and then, get this, they crate the dog when they go to bed! Dog is also crated when they go to the movies or out to dinner or grocery shopping - whenever they’re not at home. That means the ONLY time the dog is out of its crate is for a few hours in the evening. That’s it. That’s what I was thinking of when I said that some people go too far with crating.

Most dogs are adaptable creatures and kindly put up with all the things we do. Doesn’t mean they enjoy being out of a crate 5 hours out of every 24 their entire lives.

[OneGrayPony]

I never crate my dogs. And have never crated any dog. I think it is cruel to leave a healthy dog in a crate/cage all day. I understand if they are sick or injured and need to be confined to prevent further injury. If a dog is destructive it needs more exercise. Not to be crated. JMHO

You are welcome to my dog. ANY TIME. He’s been treated by behaviorists and by medication. He is destructive when left alone because he suffers from severe separation anxiety that a professional could not treat him for (believe me, they tried).

Please, come take him from his cruel owner. Really, I’ll pay you.

Editing to add: He also whines constantly, a high pitched whine that would make a child cry and break windows. And he has a skin condition and hair loss that is also congenital and untreatable. And treats don’t work, he’s a praise/pack motivated dog ONLY. Oh, and he’s losing his eyesight due to congenital cataracts. And he’s got really bad allergies, so if he eats anything foreign he immediately has diarrhea.

Seriously - I couldn’t get someone to take this dog. Luckily, he’s sweet.

[2tempe]

Last puppy I had was not crated but contained in a small mudroom while I worked. He was walked AM every day, walked at lunch by either me or a friend if I was in meetings. Went everywhere w/ me after work (walks, barn, visiting friends, etc), slept in bed. He was just fine. When he got to about 15 months, I got him a cat and they kept house all day w/ no confinement. For about a year I had no mid-day help, then had a great neighbor who let him out w/ their dog in their fenced yard.
Most recent rescue came crate-trained. He slept in there all night for a few months; that was close to 9 hours. Not cruel, he never made a sound.

[red_mares]

Growing up, our dog was crated frequently & often all day. She never minded. As others said, she often slept their on her own accord.

With regard to the OP. It’s a JRT that’s being crated. Some of the options suggested aren’t exactly an option, because those little suckers can jump! Unless they are old, a roof is required to contain many of them. They also a bit notorious for not house training very well.

[paulaedwina]

I think it’s important to crate train dogs because they need to be familiar with being transported, boarded, or hospitalized should the need arise. It’s just like with horses -you’d hate that the first time your horse gets loaded is the day it needs to be evacuated or transported.

Having said that, I train them to it with the hopes of not having to use it regularly.

Paula

[Anne_FS]

[QUOTE=2tempe;7176471]
Not cruel, he never made a sound.[/QUOTE]

Okay, this comment isn’t in any way saying you’re cruel, crating is cruel, whatever.

However, it’s important, really important, that we all understand that because a dog does not object to something, that the dog enjoys it or would choose it or isn’t a sad creature.

Yes, I use crates for some of my dogs. No, I don’t think crating is cruel.

But I know for a fact that just because a dog “never made a sound,” that has nothing to do with the innate cruelty or unfairness of an act. NOT saying crating is cruel. Just pointing out that although SOME dogs might raise holy hell if confined too much, most dogs, being thoroughly domesticated, kind, trusting, entirely-dependent-upon-us, and not knowing any other way of life, and just being domestic dogs, will put up with us - so a dog being quiet is no justification that it isn’t bothered by something or sad about something. Anyone who’s ever seen cruelty cases knows to their horror that there are dogs who will always come to their owners knowing they’ll be beaten, or burnt with cigarettes, or strung up for “discipline,” or who starve to death quietly in a house or on a chain or in a yard because they never let out a peep or tried to get away.

It’s important that we know that just because our dogs peaceably do things, that doesn’t always mean the things are the best for them, or that they like doing them at all.

[Riley0522]

2 of my 3 dogs are crated and the 3rd in an ex-pen 8-10 hrs/day when the SO and I are both working the day (I work a lot of off shift, so this is probably anywhere from 4-8 times/month). I don’t really see where people get off calling this cruel. I would NEVER leave 2 dogs alone, unattended for that length of time…seen too many situations where dogs “got along” for years and then one day one dog up and killed or seriously injured the other. One of my dogs is still very destructive when left to his own devices (he’s 5) and another one is blind and has separation anxiety, and will pee/poop in the house if left out and we’re not home. We’ve tried looking at a dog walker, but one of our dogs is very timid with new people and will bite, so too much of a liability.

Overall my dogs don’t seem to mind, I think they have it better than most dogs and crating is the safest option for them. One of my dogs runs with me (2-4 miles multiple times a week), we have a large, fully fenced yard, still walk them 3-4 times/wk, hike with them and bring them to his parents’ farm. They are not crated at night. I would feel bad if we had to crate them for that period of time 5 days/wk every week, but I’m pretty sure they’d survive.

If every person who had a dog needed to be home all the time and not work or let the dog destroy their house while they were gone because a crate wasn’t an option, we’d have a lot more homeless dogs in shelters/being euthanized.

[CVPeg]

There’s actually a science behind the whole crating thing. They’re den animals. They feel secure and protected when in their own crates. I remember thinking how horrible it was when I first knew someone who crated their dog. That was before I really became a serious dog owner/exhibitor/breeder. My dogs have all been raised with crates, with the exception being my current - an Irish Wolfhound - but she’s an older gal and with me all the time anyway. And the dogs have always been much happier in a crate when I’m not in the house. Empty house? It becomes their responsibility to then watch over it - thus the anxiety when left alone while the master is gone. Some deal with it ok. Some obviously do not. Same for a fenced yard without a house/enclosure - they now have to guard all day, and be concerned about predators.

It is perhaps a little long to have them in crates all day, but I’ve been there before, and do understand having to do it when you have the responsibility of a job. IMO, best would be to be able to come home at lunch to let them out and check on them - especially when they’re still young and learning. But reality is that many just can’t do that. So deny a dog an owner, or an owner a loving pet if they don’t fit into that framework? Not at all. They really do sleep all the time in average circumstances, and much better when protected and left alone in the crate, their own special place.

[Anne_FS]

Beware of the “science” thing. Dogs den mainly when they whelp. They’ll dig a hole for shade, etc. However, once grown neither dogs nor wolves routinely “den” unless they’re whelping. In addition, don’t confuse a den which is entered & left at will, to a crate that can never be left at will. Humongous difference.

Most of us seem to be agreeing that crates are a good thing, but as you say, it gets a little long. IMO sometimes people forget, because our dogs are so peaceful about it, just how long they are actually staying confined. We need to watch out for that.

[GraceLikeRain]

I personally am not comfortable crating more than 5 hours at a time. Right now I am lucky that my living situation ensures that Dexter is alone for more than 2-3 hours on a typical day. Once I adopt a 8-5 lifestyle or my living situation changes I will hire a dog walker to come at least once a day if I cannot make it home at lunch.