[QUOTE=toady123;7182671]
It’s a moot point now because they are no longer crated- we only did it for about 6 months. But I have no regrets with how we approached it. Nor do I make judgements about those who do the same.[/QUOTE]
You did a good job, and thanks to your efforts your dogs are now well-adjusted enough and well trained enough that they are no longer crated. Unfortunately many don’t take the time you did and just crate forever.
[QUOTE=englishcowgirl;7192894]
I found this dog on the side of the road and I think we know why she was out there as I believe she is a very expensive pure bred dog. If anyone wants to take a crack at explaining her behavior or can help to fix it, I would welcome the assistance. I try to give this dog the best life possible.[/QUOTE]
Wow, she certainly sounds like a challenge! Have you considered consulting with a Veterinary Behaviorist or Certified Animal Behavior Consultant? Even severe separation anxiety can often be treated with a combination of behavior therapy and sometimes medication.
It is not unusual for separation anxiety dogs to consider their car a safe place and if so, they do not exhibit the anxiety related destructiveness in the car. It is much less common for the mere sight of the car to prevent the destructiveness!
Sometimes, unfortunately, the car ceases to “work” and the dog ends up trashing the car.
You mention she is an expensive purebred dog, what breed? I am just curious!
There’s nothing wrong with crating, better than the ending that some dogs have, getting in trouble. Most marking story: a trainer told me about a client’s boxer who was destructive, the owners chose not to crate. They found the dog badly injured after - who knows how -he seemingly made his way behind a stove and chewed the electric cord. My mom’s Golden puppy ate a mop head and needed surgery… The list goes on.
My older dog (11 1/2 yo pit bull) is not crated, but gated off in the kitchen/guest room mainly to keep him off the couch. As a youngster, I didn’t know better and this dog destroyed the couch, emptied the garbage, chewed up shoes, disemboweled cushions when we were gone. He instantly got better in a more confined space, being gated off in out then-small kitchen.
My other pit bull (4 yo) is crated because it was always drilled into my head not to let 2 dogs unattended loose together and also because he’s been misbehaving occasionally if I disappear (puncture wound to the tv remote).
My two love the crate though - the door is always open and currently the medium sized cage contains 95 pounds of snuggling, snoring pit bulls.
Honestly, they sleep while we’re gone. As long as there’s sufficient space in the crate as well as water and a toy, my young one is just fine sleeping in his cozy crate bed. Obviously he’s loose whenever we’re home and gets plenty of exercise.
Food for thought.
I have a fairly active dog that is uncrated so when I received a Tagg tracker for my birthday I thought I would give it a shot. I had an unusual day where I was gone 11-9 except for a quick potty break mid afternoon. Over that 10 hour period Dexter logged 45 minutes of light activity, 12 minutes of moderate activity, and 5 minutes of high activity. Light is walking, moderate would be a brisk trot, and high activity is a sprint.
So even though he isn’t receiving any outside stimulus, he is electing to engage in over a hour of physical activity by roaming the house and playing with his toys (complete with a bout of extreme zoomies it appears).
For the record Dexter is almost 2 and I would have guessed he maxed at around 30 minutes of wandering while I was gone.
I am going to repeat this sporadically over the next few weeks and see if this level of activity is consistent.
^ Wonder if the act of standing up and circling the bed to find just the right comfy spots records as activity?
How long was the midday potty break?
I think it’s cruel. If you can’t train your dog to not destroy your house, maybe you should work a bit harder on that instead of bandaging over the problem by caging him? I work from home and watch my dogs- and yeah, they do sleep much of the day, but they move around quite a bit inbetween naps. Probably cover a good mile or so going to look out the windows, move from bed to bed, etc.
How can it be good to live in a tiny box? and your only excuse is you can’t train your dog how to behave?
[QUOTE=wendy;7195360]
How can it be good to live in a tiny box? and your only excuse is you can’t train your dog how to behave?[/QUOTE]
I think you’re an idiot for this comment. My dogs are crated as to not endanger themselves when I’m not home. Dogs are animals with their own mind and I would never leave 3 dogs unattended for long periods of time, you’re eventually just asking for trouble, be it a fight or them getting into something they shouldn’t. Would you leave 5-year olds home alone all day?
My destructive dog is destructive when left alone because he has anxiety when left alone, when crated he is perfectly content and comfortable. Do you think I should drug my dog into oblivion just to leave him out, or perhaps just put him in a crate? This dog runs 2-4 miles/day multiple times a week with me in addition to a large, fenced back yard and 2-4 mile walks with his sisters multiple times a week. The crate is my solution to a safe, healthy dog and non-destroyed house. We have gone to multiple training classes to combat his anxiety with no relief, but every trainer tells us that he is the most attentive, well-behaved dog they have seen in a long time. I’ve hiked miles with this dog off leash and never had him stray further than 50ft from me even when encountering other dogs and people. So please tell me how is he not trained to behave? I
I’d like to give you this dog for 5 years and see where you’d be at. Maybe I should wake him up right now, pull him off the $2000 leather sofa he’s passed out on, skip our 4 mile afternoon run and instead take him to the vet to be euthanized because he has such a horrible home and cruel owners.
What exactly do you do with your dogs that makes you owner of the year other than not crate them ever?
[QUOTE=wendy;7195360]
How can it be good to live in a tiny box? and your only excuse is you can’t train your dog how to behave?[/QUOTE]
I had a longer response to this that I actually posted and deleted because I decided not to feed into such an ignorant statement. Everyone has a right to their opinion, but to suggest someone is making excuses and can’t train their dog because they opt to crate it for its’ own safety is just ridiculous. Not every problem can be fixed with impeccable “training.”
[QUOTE=wendy;7195360]
I think it’s cruel. If you can’t train your dog to not destroy your house, maybe you should work a bit harder on that instead of bandaging over the problem by caging him? I work from home and watch my dogs- and yeah, they do sleep much of the day, but they move around quite a bit inbetween naps. Probably cover a good mile or so going to look out the windows, move from bed to bed, etc.
How can it be good to live in a tiny box? and your only excuse is you can’t train your dog how to behave?[/QUOTE]
Just wondering, are all your horses on 24/7 pasture board?
Or do you have your reasons for keeping them in a tiny box for certain periods of the day?
GracelikeRain, I’m a scientist and your simple report gave me all kinds of intellectual arousal! Thank you for it! Very cool. Meup, my horse is on 24/7 pasture board. I am currently crate training my new dog -she was 5 years tied out so I’m introducing the concept of not peeing in the house (thankfully the shelter had begun this training). She’s a beagle/bulldog mix and her crate is like a pen because it’s an extra large (great dane) crate. She has been crated regularly every day and will so for the time being. The longest is 8 hours. Since I don’t trust her with my fence yet we walk alot. We go two miles every morning and many small walks during the day.
It is important, IMO, that she gets used to crates (as I’ve stated before). However the goal is not to crate her. As a beagle it may be that she is never given access to the dog door when I’m not home (if you know beagles you know what I’m talking about), but she should have the run of the house once she gets the concept of holding it.
I’ll be running some livestock hot wire inside my deer fence. When I get to the stage that she’s trustworthy she should also have access to the yard when I am not home (fingers crossed).
Paula
[QUOTE=wendy;7195360]
I think it’s cruel. If you can’t train your dog to not destroy your house, maybe you should work a bit harder on that instead of bandaging over the problem by caging him? I work from home and watch my dogs- and yeah, they do sleep much of the day, but they move around quite a bit inbetween naps. Probably cover a good mile or so going to look out the windows, move from bed to bed, etc.
How can it be good to live in a tiny box? and your only excuse is you can’t train your dog how to behave?[/QUOTE]
It’s pretty easy to train your dogs to be 100% reliable when you work from home. :rolleyes: For the rest of the world that can’t do this, they have to decide how important that one hour of unrestricted activity is in comparison to the potential dangers your dogs can create for themselves, potty accidents, damage to furniture and belongings, etc.
And, as someone who is also home during the day - your being there causes them to move around more than if you weren’t. My sleeping dogs will often jump off the bed to follow me into the kitchen to beg for a treat. Something that I am sure doesn’t happen when I am not home.
I agree about the 24/7 turnout comparison. All those people who stall their horses overnight are pretty cruel, too.
[QUOTE=trubandloki;7195047]
^ Wonder if the act of standing up and circling the bed to find just the right comfy spots records as activity?
How long was the midday potty break?[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure. It records his treadmill activity. I can try it out some time soon.
The potty break was long enough for me to run home, swap out books, and book it out the door because I was running late. So maybe 7-12 minutes?
[QUOTE=GraceLikeRain;7194905]
Food for thought.
I have a fairly active dog that is uncrated so when I received a Tagg tracker for my birthday I thought I would give it a shot. I had an unusual day where I was gone 11-9 except for a quick potty break mid afternoon. Over that 10 hour period Dexter logged 45 minutes of light activity, 12 minutes of moderate activity, and 5 minutes of high activity. Light is walking, moderate would be a brisk trot, and high activity is a sprint.
So even though he isn’t receiving any outside stimulus, he is electing to engage in over a hour of physical activity by roaming the house and playing with his toys (complete with a bout of extreme zoomies it appears).
For the record Dexter is almost 2 and I would have guessed he maxed at around 30 minutes of wandering while I was gone.
I am going to repeat this sporadically over the next few weeks and see if this level of activity is consistent.[/QUOTE]
That is so cool! Excellent!!
I know what my Irish Wolfhounds do when I am home, but am told they behave differently when I am not at home. Love the idea of the Tagg tracker! I have often wished I had a video cam to record their activity when I am not there, like a stall cam, but would have to have an outside cam too.
Mine do sleep quite a bit if I am at home, but also sometimes get up, go out for a drink or pee, etc. Youngsters are much more active than the older ones. All is dependent on outside stimulation, like a delivery truck, animals on the property, digging stimuli, etc.
They do often get up at night and go out and have a drink, pee, or group howl.
I think people might be surprised, as you were, to find that their dogs might be more active than they would think, given a choice.
I would certainly not categorize crate use as cruel, as I have said. However, perhaps the dogs might benefit if they were given a bit more room and choice, if it were possible. I have a giant breed, and feel our puppies benefit in their develiopment orthopedically if given some exercise and movement throughout the day, though it must be carefully controlled.
My horses are in fact out 24/7, they have constant access to their stalls which have fans, etc. I do confine them at times, I can shut them into a 12 x 12 stall with attached outside under roof area of 12 x 12 if awaiting vet or farrier, or if truly bad weather. This is quite a bit larger area, in comparison to their body size, than most dog crates are in comparison to their body size. If a horse is confined in this area, they are generally not alone, I similarly confine another horse next to him.
I use a crate sometimes but there are other options besides crating.
In my previous job I was away 12 hours a day. Personal decision but just could not put the young dog in a crate for 12 hours then put her in a crate again at night …so instead I did 2 things.
I got another dog to keep dog#1 company and I had a dog run built with dog door going into porch. These girls were one year apart in age and grew up together. Dog run was a bit of an eyesore on the house but I really didn’t care. It was a good solution for us. I never worried about them. They had each other for company and they had room to run around and relieve themselves as needed.
A family member did the crate thing instead- dog was in the crate all night and 9 hours a day. Sorry, but how can that be kind? I think if I had to do that I would just not be aBLE to have a dog.
And, also, if I had some of the dogs described in this thread, I would so crate their asses!
I feel so fortunate to have not been in that position. I have been so fortunate to have had such lovely hounds. I have left 3-6 or more together in the house, with a dog door, for forty years without notable incident (obviously, not the same hounds!). Of course I am aware of who does and does not get along, the Irish Wolfhounds give you plenty of warning if something is not right.
The worst things I have happen have been in the kennel, not the house. Once I had a lovely older bitch who had a lovely feather bed, which I put for some reason (can’t recall why) in the kennel. Next to her was a run full of older pups, maybe three or four six month olds. They somehow managed to suck that feather bed under the divider, into their run. Much fun ensued. I was out of town.
I was told, they were covered head to toe in feathers. Plus there were feathers everywhere, two feet deep. My dear friend had to clean everything up, and complained that the only broom I had in the kennel was Barbie Doll sized. We were both in hysterics as she described the scene of the crime. Where were cameras when we needed them?
Don’t people have backyards to keep their dogs in anymore??
even people who have lovely well-fenced backyards around here lock their dogs in tiny cages all day- because they can 't figure out how to keep the dog from barking non-stop or digging holes (um, did you bother to exercise the poor thing?). Crates are supposed to be a training tool- you use them briefly and then get rid of them. Otherwise they are just a cruel excuse to not train your dog. They are probably the most ill-used dog training equipment around. It’s a tool to help you train your dog, not a solution for not training the dog.
According to the Animal Welfare Act, minimum space requirements for dogs:
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/pdf/minimum-space-requirements-for-dogs
This does not apply to privately owned dogs (yet) but is interesting.
[QUOTE=wendy;7195908]
even people who have lovely well-fenced backyards around here lock their dogs in tiny cages all day- because they can 't figure out how to keep the dog from barking non-stop or digging holes (um, did you bother to exercise the poor thing?). Crates are supposed to be a training tool- you use them briefly and then get rid of them. Otherwise they are just a cruel excuse to not train your dog. They are probably the most ill-used dog training equipment around. It’s a tool to help you train your dog, not a solution for not training the dog.[/QUOTE]
Not surprisingly, I disagree with 99% of this post. My dogs do NOT need access to my lovely, well-fenced yard all day. Not because they bark, but they do dig holes, pee on my flowers, eat the mulch, etc. These things are all part of owning a dog, so I don’t really mind. But I am not sure that the opposite of “crating for 10 hours” = “constant access to my well-fenced backyard”.
I don’t crate my dog for long periods of time, but when I worked full time, I did crate my dog in a large crate during the day. AND I exercised him AND trained him AND allowed him free access to the house the rest of the day. Crating is not, by definition, the opposite of training, exercise, or liberty. Just as with horses, it is a restriction of access, for a variety of reasons. So long as the dog or horse can drink, stretch, and lay flat, and it doesn’t amount to the majority of their day; it is not necessarily “cruel”.
Can it be abused – of course. But using a crate is not abuse. And certainly not when balanced with exercise, training and hanging out at liberty.
I would guess Wendy would like my neighbors across the street.
They bought a lab, installed underground electronic fencing around their several acres of yard and a dog door from the garage to outside. Said dog has 24/7 access to the yard.
Sounds dreamy, right?
Well, unless you are a neighbor.
I would guess if you asked these people if their dog barks or causes any issues they would say no. Why? Because when they are home he doesn’t (unless something enters their property).
When they are not home he is outside - always (he can get into his garage but not the house). When they are not home he seems to think if he can see you he needs to bark at you. Period. I can be wrestling with the hose in front of my barn, 250’ back from the road, and he is standing in his front yard barking at me. God forbid I want to get my mail. The mail box is on my side of the street, not his, but the closer I get to the end of my driveway the meaner he appears to get (he is really a chicken and if confronted runs away).
It gets better. When these people go away on vacation, the dog is left home. Someone does come 1x a day to feed and water but other than that, he is out there being annoying.
Oh, and this dog does get exercise. They play with him quite a bit and the husband runs.
Per the likes of Wendy this is how dogs should be kept, outside in the yard.
Maybe I should talk to the neighbors so they can find a way to train while not at home…since the dogs issues happen when they are not there and per Wendy this is all a training issue. There must be some fancy way to make Fido behave when you are not there, right?
I don’t know why you all continue to respond to Wendy.
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