Creating the barn sour horse

[BlueDrifter]

@beau159 … yup, and vet check confirms it isn’t a pain issue. We did full xrays on front feet for baseline and there is a teeny bit of “navicular” type changes, but she said those were commensurate with his age (12) and she would pass him on a PPE. I sort of wonder if that was from his tripping issue with the prior shoer his first six months with me, and if it would ever remodel given more correct shoeing… hmmm… And she was quite amazed at what clean joints he has, no arthritis down there. (we did change his shoeing angles a bit based upon the xrays… he as a flat palmar angle)

He was an angel sitting for all the xrays, but when it came time to shoe, his patience was up and he was bad-bad-bad, snatching his foot, not lifting it up, leaning, shaking his head, fidgeting… The farrier has a hancock horse too, and she said he needed some time on the patience tree. I think she wanted to clock him. She got a big tip, it was bad.

So, yup, it is all me…but he has a, uh, strong personality!

@susieqnutter, good riders and trainers just don’t realize the respect they command, lol! You gave me an idea though, I wonder if he would balk on trail if he wasn’t in the lead. He likes to be in the lead, but if another horse kept going I wonder if he would still turn towards home…

@shiloh , he thanks you for the compliment. He is pretty, and has a sweet kind eye. You would never know there was a dominant bully lurking inside when he doesn’t want to do something. However, he had a rough life: his tongue has a scar halfway across and every fetlock has a barbed wire type cut/proud flesh callous on it. Farrier had to ask what the heck he had been doing… So I have to guess he was probably handled pretty roughly just two short years ago

(BTW, what did you find as the best way to get your guy somewhat forward, aside from leading? Kick, spur, whip, patience and sitting there til he moves forward?

@Palm Beach I am with you! I don’t want to get in a fight with him as he tends to react even more stubbornly, and I think @cloudy18 might be right about him being sensitive, He might be thinking he will be kicked/spurred/whipped if he goes down the trail with me.

This weekend is busy, but next week we are on it!

[shiloh]

[QUOTE=BlueDrifter;n10256766@shiloh (BTW, what did you find as the best way to get your guy somewhat forward, aside from leading? Kick, spur, whip, patience and sitting there til he moves forward?[/QUOTE]

Kicking, using the whip, spurs - that would just set him off and he would either start backing up at Warp 10 or he would back up while spinning and when he did that he would drop his head so you had no horse in front of you. Sounds fun, no? NOT. Sitting there would work for a bit - I would be happy to sit in one place all day but he was not allowed to go backwards. If he moved back I would nudge him right back to where he stood - even if that was only one step. Sometimes he would give in - oh so ungraciously, I might add - and stomp forward. And that was fine. I don’t care if smoke is curling out your ears, you’re doing what I want. If he started to throw a hissy, it was off and marching forward, sometimes trotting, at a brisk pace. Be prepared to handle anything and the crap attitude that may come with it and hold your ground. He has to know that you will take alllllll day if necessary. I think that’s what “gets” them - that idea that you are quite happy to spend hours and hours doing this.

[BlueDrifter]

Thanks, @shiloh !

[sdlbredfan]

Just to be sure there is not also some muscle problem adding to the mix, have you done the testing (I think it is called a ‘five panel’??) to either identify or rule out any of the muscle myopathies? Let’s say hypothetically, if a horse also has muscle pain issues that start at a certain point in the ride/at a certain duration of exercise, and if that soreness happens when you also are trying to go out on the trail, that makes it harder to know whether the problem is physical or mental.

If there is some underlying muscle problem, that certainly can cause pain, but it is intermittent, not constant. Good luck and keep us posted on what you and the Vet figure out.

[Rackonteur]

pAin’t_Misbehavin’;n10237488]
I don’t think the fact you can lead him forward means he’s not afraid. I think it means he is afraid but he trusts you to keep him safe as long as you’re where he can see you.

I was thinking this too.

I wouldn’t keep hitting him though. It sounds like that’s just creating more panic, which is causing him to back up. That’s such a bad habit I wouldn’t want him to get more practice at that.

Yeah, you don’t want him backing into a rear.

Maybe he has separation anxiety. Maybe his feet are still bothering him. Has anything changed in his tack since you got him? Bit? Saddle?

Maybe he’s reacting to your own nervousness about going out on the trail alone. Even if you’re not consciously nervous, if you have any feeling of nervousness/agoraphobia/anxiety about it, he will pick up on that and it will scare him. And since he’s a prey animal it will make it worse. He needs you to be his herd Alpha, and confident enough for the both of you. And if you weren’t nervous to begin with going out alone, you probably are now anticipating his “bad” behavior.

Or he could just be taking advantage of you and in his mind he is now the herd Alpha.

[demidq]

Slightly different approach.
OP- how far can you get on the trail alone before he stalls? Can you ride out nicely to a point BEFORE he stops, praise him like crazy and then turn home? Make the turn at different places so he doesn’t anticipate, but after a couple of successful outings I bet you’ll be able to get further and further until the habit is broken. Takes patience and an ability to read his subtle cues but it prevents the fights and gives outings a more positive association.
I assume you have checked saddle fit and whether or not his back is sore?

[BlueDrifter]

Hi guys!

No muscle pain… he goes out with the trainer without too much issue. He has tried with her, but she can catch and correct. Unfortunately, it is me.

Although he has been balky from the day I got him (wanting to turn into his row of stalls, not wanting to go past his stall for another loop around the barn), being barn sour on trail is something that has gotten worse, and as I disciplined to go forward, he upped the ante to refuse. So we went from kick to bat, to spur. I created this…

We could get out maybe 100 yards and then he refused. Rather than fight with him, I let him return on a path home, but then asked him to take a side trail away, and he balked again. I would kick/bat and we’d go a little and then he’d refuse and back me off the trail, so I would turn toward home a bit and then turn him around and ask him to go away from the barn again. You know how this ends… our shorter and shorter excursions landed us back at the trailhead, lol!

The next time we went out with others, he did fine once we got through a major balk down the hillside.

The next time I went out alone, he barely wanted to go down the barn driveway without protesting every step. So spurs came into effect for first time and yes, they worked to get him down the driveway.

Unfortunately he came up lame in the last two weeks (full vet check and xrays with farrier – nothing in particular wrong, but blocked to RF – could be the start of something or could be soft tissue) and I haven’t had the opportunity to try much.

He has been sound the last two days, but I am taking it easy and don’t want to have any twisty arguments about trail for another week or so. I’d be surprised if whatever is going on in his hoof would make him balky and barn sour. It could, but he has been sound for the last two months, after I changed shoers, and would go for the trainer. This recent lameness is odd…but not so odd that we can pinpoint something without it presenting more overtly.

Saddle fit could be an issue, but I don’t think so. Chiro doesn’t find his back sore, but has adjusted his hips and next with loud pops.

I do have a new wade saddle that seems to have folks divided 50:50 as to whether it is a pinch too tight, (he is wide, as is his saddle), still no one thinks it is tight enough to cause any pain for the less than 30 min trail loop we are having trouble with. Trainer’s saddle seems just as tight (I still haven’t gotten over how much tighter they feel compared to english!) and he goes fine for her. He has been balky in my english Orthoflex which I know does not cause him any pain. But maybe worth another look-see. Maybe I ride in trainer’s saddle.

@demidq, stopping before it gets bad is definitely what I need to try. And I also want to re-examine just sitting there and waiting it out. I do think adding more punishment with whip/spur just makes him more resistant.

@rakonteur: exactly! Now he has me anticipating going down the hill into a backwards rear! Funny, but not. I am sure he can pick up on some of that. Mostly, I think he has established his alpha position and is defending it, and it all seemed to happen after an almost 3 month layup from the poor shoeing event.

So maybe NEXT week I will have some good news to report. I certainly have a number of things to try. Someone suggested just ponying him out there for awhile and let his bad memories clear. I’ve been handwalking him up the driveway stopping for grass and hay bits… hoping that earns me some brownie points that the driveway isn’t a precursor to a bad time.

[demidq]

Ponying him with you mounted could be very helpful. When my mare was green-as-grass, our trainer ponied us on manyy trail rides to build confidence in us both.

[cloudy18]

You can also try Warwick Schiller’s “make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard”. If he wants to walk willingly forward on the trail then you leave him be for the most part. When he wants to balk then he can back up, side pass, yield his forehand or hindquarters, do small circles, etc. Don’t get mad, just put him to work.

I also think the right kind of groundwork could be helpful in instilling a better forward button and also help you become more of a trusted leader. Can you send him forward from the ground in both directions? How about over obstacles or between them?

And I hope this is just an issue of him being unsure of you and not an underlying pain issue. Good luck!

[BlueDrifter]

Thought I would pop in with a good 6 week update.

For one, I have decided is just balky and not barn-sour.

Continued good shoeing and continued work with the trainer 3x a week. Nappy issues still cropped up, but we shouldered on.

I have been haunting the Blue Valentine/Hancock blood line forums and it seems the popular opinion is “smart horse, ask and show again, don’t pick a fight” and that is the course we have been taking.

I haven’t put him in a situation where I anticipate he will balk. I’ve worked to make things short and sweet and only work on building a pleasant experience for him. No whip, I am wearing spurs but barely use them or calf pressure to keep ahead of any time I think he is thinking about going backwards – and once we get through that bit of pressure I turn him around and do something else.

I know folks will think “he is winning,” but right now it seems I am winning as he is becoming more and more willing…

I don’t know if it is the continued good shoeing, the consistency of training, the non-pressure environment, but it is working. The balking instances have just about disappeared. But I haven’t taken him on trail alone. Trainer has, so he builds up a positive experience, but I haven’t haven’t pushed it yet. I have gone out further, but once past an area he normally balks, I come back, so it is my idea. I have the time to make this right.

Now, I suspect he is always going to test me, and this isn’t exactly how I envisioned my “trail horse” to be, but he is making me a better horse person, and I am feeling positive that it will continue to get better…albeit at a slower pace!

[cloudy18]

I don’t think he is winning. I think the whole mindset of “I can’t let him win” causes a lot of issues and is unfair to the horse. The horse isn’t thinking in those terms. He might be better for the trainer not so much because he is pushing your buttons (another human term) but because he feels more confidence with her, or because it’s easier to continue on (he might sense that she is in it for the long haul and he’s going to expend less energy to just continue on). Either way, i think what you are doing is great, and taking your time now will pay off down the road. I’m slowly learning that escalating things usually doesn’t help.

If you want some good reading that will help you to look at things from a horse’s perspective, try Mark Rashid books. I’m currently reading Horses Never Lie, and you might find some helpful thoughts in it. It’s not a training book but might give you some new insight into a horse’s brain. And it’s easy reading.

Keep us updated!

[BlueDrifter]

Hi @cloudy18 , we think alike! I have many of Mark Rashid books and have even audited a couple clinics. I just read his book on retraining a horse, I could benefit from re-reading them all.

I have just been lucky that my prior two trail horses were so good. I knew they were good, but now I know they were really good! My last horse became an excellent dressage mount because I was working so much that he was in training 5 days a week with my friends who were all dressage riders. He went all the way to PSG, but wasn’t a trail horse, hence the purchase of my current horse.

He is making me a better rider, although I’d rather we just tooled along on trail with no effort, lol.

[cloudy18]

I also sometimes wish I had a horse I could just putz along on with no issues. But I frequently tell myself I’m becoming a better rider this way. Sometimes I feel like I should be way better than I am, considering the practice I get.

[candyappy]

@BlueDrifter

@Heinz 57 mentioned a trained horse she took back after it became sulky and sour with it’s beginner rider.

1. Can this be true?

2. Can you actually create a sour attitude in your horse just by being a beginner? I thought being lax, not setting boundries, not riding hard enough, etc might create a pushy in-your-space type horse, but not a bad attitude.

Although I have had horses for 25 years I am 63 and my riding skills might be more beginner-ish than not, since I am a trail rider and not in the arena much. He also has just come off 3 months of tack walk due to poor shoeing, so he has had it a bit easier until this past month…

Just hoping this is more solvable than not as I ride alone most of the time…

To answer your questions.

1. YES.

2. YES.

My daughter has a little mare ( very well trained) who will happily go out with my horse on trail. If my daughter tries to go out alone she has some issues. She is just not a forceful rider. Her horse knows this.
I can get on the mare and the minute she even hesitates I get after her pronto. That ends that and she goes wherever I point her.

It makes no difference if you do arena work or not. What matters is who is in control when you ride. Every time you get on there is the possibility of a battle of wills. Some battles are so small we can miss them completely, but the horse never does. My mare will balk at things that worry her when we ride out. How I handle that on every ride sets the pattern for future rides.

What I do is take the path of least resistance in getting her to keep moving forward. I have the advantage over your situation as I am the only person to have ever ridden her , but we still have our moments.

At 63 your self preservation is strong and it may mean you unconsciously don’t want to rock the boat or push the horse in fear of upsetting him or possibly having a fall. I am not far behind you and believe me I do not want a fall.

On one occasion on trail my mare saw something and came unglued on the spot. I could feel her expanding and knew she was going to loose her mind. I got off and walked her home. Our next ride she was fine.

This is something that hopefully your new trainer can help you with. A normally well trained horse can easily be reformed once he knows his rider is in control.

ETA: Saw your update. Small steps work good too. Just keep plugging along:)
you will get there.