Creating the barn sour horse

[BlueDrifter]

I have had my 12 yo, ex ranch gelding a year, but just learned this past week that he doesn’t want to go out on trail alone. He is fine going out with other horses.

Alone on trail, he will go maybe 200 yards then stop. Pony kicks will get me a few more steps. Adding spurs will gain me a few more. Insisting starts to result in rapid reverse. He responds best to the crop – sometimes just me holding it – but then he starts to refuse even with a crop and spanking more results in a faster backup. I can get off and lead him forward. He is not afraid.

Since the trails are narrow, and I don’t like backing into who knows what, I frequently return to a wider area near trail head and disengage and do figure 8’s, and school until he goes forward willingly – but I don’t go all the way back to the exact site of first refusal, mainly because it seems “testing it out” might result in another hour long session of refusal/backup and spur/crops, and I feel I should end on a good note.

Except we aren’t getting better!

I recently moved to this barn and a trainer will help me this week, but I was struck by a comment @Heinz 57 mentioned a trained horse she took back after it became sulky and sour with it’s beginner rider. Can this be true?

Can you actually create a sour attitude in your horse just by being a beginner? I thought being lax, not setting boundries, not riding hard enough, etc might create a pushy in-your-space type horse, but not a bad attitude.

Although I have had horses for 25 years I am 63 and my riding skills might be more beginner-ish than not, since I am a trail rider and not in the arena much. He also has just come off 3 months of tack walk due to poor shoeing, so he has had it a bit easier until this past month…

Just hoping this is more solvable than not as I ride alone most of the time…

[Haven_tJumpedInALongTime]

@BlueDrifter

I recently moved to this barn and a trainer will help me this week, but I was struck by a comment @Heinz 57 mentioned a trained horse she took back after it became sulky and sour with it’s beginner rider. Can this be true?

Can you actually create a sour attitude in your horse just by being a beginner?

Yes to both questions.

[Haven_tJumpedInALongTime]

You might want to try posting this in Off Course to get more responses to help you!

[retiredhorse]

@BlueDrifter

I recently moved to this barn and a trainer will help me this week, but I was struck by a comment @Heinz 57 mentioned a trained horse she took back after it became sulky and sour with it’s beginner rider. Can this be true?

Can you actually create a sour attitude in your horse just by being a beginner? I thought being lax, not setting boundries, not riding hard enough, etc might create a pushy in-your-space type horse, but not a bad attitude.

Yes, and it’s not necessarily due to less demanding work, though some horses do better in a program where they have a regular job and know the routine. Sometimes it’s not catching things early (there’s been threads about horse not wanting to go forward or up/down hills due to discomfort and/or training issue) or rider position or timing issues that horse either takes advantage of or finds difficult to understand/deal with (ie clashing aids or off-balance rider). And pushy horse sometimes IS, or can lead to, bad attitude/behavior; it creates lack of trust in the horse. If you’re not confident about where you’re going, horse won’t be either. If you don’t set boundaries, then the horse will set their own.

Although I have had horses for 25 years I am 63 and my riding skills might be more beginner-ish than not, since I am a trail rider and not in the arena much. He also has just come off 3 months of tack walk due to poor shoeing, so he has had it a bit easier until this past month…

Just hoping this is more solvable than not as I ride alone most of the time…

Any possibility his feet are still causing some issues? Is the footing or slope different where he balks?

[endlessclimb]

You don’t need a large area to disengage a horse in reverse. I don’t quite know how to explain what I do, but it’s almost like I’m trying to tangle their front legs to get them to quit backing, while kicking to keep energy going. Standing still is not something allowed until the horse makes an attempt to go the way I want, so even one step forward I’ll allow a rest, but not till then.

[SuzieQNutter]

Yes and yes. The saying is that you wreck your first horse.

That is because horses learn much faster than their rider.

Each horse you get will progress faster than the one before, simply because each horse starts with a better rider.

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

@BlueDrifter

I have had my 12 yo, ex ranch gelding a year, but just learned this past week that he doesn’t want to go out on trail alone. He is fine going out with other horses.
. . . I can get off and lead him forward. He is not afraid…

I don’t think the fact you can lead him forward means he’s not afraid. I think it means he is afraid but he trusts you to keep him safe as long as you’re where he can see you.
I also don’t think he has a bad attitude. He’s just being a herd animal. If his ancestors had been willing to strike off alone into the woods he probably wouldn’t be here now.
I have a wonderful little horse who is not the bravest bunny either, and he and I used to go through this. I would just take what I could get. If I could ride him down the driveway but not up the road, I’d get off and lead him up the road. After a few hand walks, he’d let me ride him up the road.
I wouldn’t keep hitting him though. It sounds like that’s just creating more panic, which is causing him to back up. That’s such a bad habit I wouldn’t want him to get more practice at that.

[Heinz_57]

The horse I mentioned specifically was only ridden by one person in the time they had him - the husband. He was a beginner and only interested in riding as something to tag along with the wife, a horse that he could just get on and go. The horse was well trained to walk/trot/lope, easy transitions, clean lead changes, had one heck of a stop and would do slow spins with a strong leg. She wasn’t fussy and didn’t need to be micro-managed. I let 7 year old kids ride her safely prior to selling her.

When I got her back, she’d learned that intimidation tactics worked - that she didn’t have to canter if she offered to buck when asked, it would scare the rider and he would ask no more. She was a solid, honest horse in the time I had her, but it’s the rare horse that would be SO honest as to not lose an iota of sharpness with a consistent lack of boundaries. I think it was about 9 months after buying that they returned her.

Whether it was simply a long term lack of boundaries, ill fitting tack, or the horse just getting fed up with the constant mixed signals of a beginner, I can’t say. Perhaps a combination of many things. Had she been maintained as directed, put through the paces and kept sharp, I think things would have gone fine. As it were, it only took me a couple of rides to ‘fix’ her issues with nothing more than consistency and good timing.

OP, I’m glad you’re getting a trainer to help you! I’m sure you will be trekking off alone in no time.

[Corky]

Definitely work with a trainer. By using a whip, spurs etc you are creating a negative association for the horse with going off alone. He now things he gets smacked around when he’s alone, and that doesn’t happen near the barn or with friends. You have to be incredibly accurate in praising every step forward and very precise with punishment for failure to respond. At this time is sounds like you are in a rut and need to break that habit. In this circumstance I’d change the question entirely to create a positive environment where the horse can get questions correct and get heaps of praise from you. You learn more effective techniques and timing, both you and horse build confidence and communication. Take him to a trail park or do obstacles in the ring with a coach and school some questions, both from the ground and mounted, so he has things that he does right immediately, either by following a horse or by you asking alone, so you can establish a very clear ‘I ask, you do, you get told you are a hero’ environment for the horse. Then when you do have to add a crop or a spur and horse does it, you tell him he’s a hero again and he learns what to do when you get after him, and he is more likely to respond the way you want. He will also do more correctly the first time you ask and remove the need to get after him, because he trusts and respects you. But you need to teach the correct response outside of your current situation (the trail, alone) then transition the learned response you build in a different environment (example, trail park, the ring, wherever). This could take many sessions. Then I’d trail ride behind the trainer, establish positive environment. Then put him in the lead, establish a positive environment, then move on ahead of trainer, establish a positive environment, all the while heaping on the praise and you’ll have a totally different horse. And more importantly, you’ll have a different relationship with your horse.

[BlueDrifter]

Hi guys! Thanks for the feedback. All good, I am in a rut on this. i don’t think there is any pain involved, but worth keeping my eye on. He has had the vet out and pronounced sound. He has had chiro. But he travels a little to the left (handling, roping?) and stiffer to the right. He had been tripping with poor shoeing, but that has been fixed over last 3 months.

I think I read all those other threads about balky horses and the remedies ranged from standing still and out-waiting them to “you must go forward.” From “don’t discipline a backing up horse with more backing” to “turn him around and back in the direction you want to go” Figuring I already started a bad habit, I opted to not even try until my trainer could work with him, lol.

He is a more whoa than go type of horse, in general, and his tendencies are to go back: he was headshy when I got him (fixed), he has pulled back when tied (seems fixed, but safety tie just in case), and coming off stall rest in crisp air with a nearby loose horse, he reared in hand. I think “back” and “shut down” are his go-to response when he doesn’t like something, oh!, maybe that and “lying down.”. The first week I had him a different trainer was exercising him hard, trying to get him to bend right, and he just gave up and gently laid down on her under saddle! Thankfully that hasn’t happened again and I found out from seller that he was taught to lie down as a trick (who would teach a ranch horse that???)

With the current trainer arena riding, he has tried to stop a couple of times – an “I’m done” response, but she didn’t allow it and he went on his way. He hasn’t bucked.

Sounds like he doesn’t have any redeeming qualities, but he is totally sacked out and NOT SPOOKY. He has a nice trot and lope. He is very stoic, and has probably had a tough life as a ranch horse – he has barbed wire cuts on all fetlocks and a huge scar on his tongue. He was ridden in a big bit, although I have him in a snaffle and he is fine… He will give when ridden, but a little pushy on the ground. All of that is improving as he gets used to his new recreational life and owner.

The new barn has direct trail access and trainer and I went out yesterday. He tried to balk twice at beginning, even with another horse, but it only took leg and clucks and he went forward. He is more forward on trail than in the barn and prefers to lead. The rest of the ride would make you beam with pride over your new trail horse - took new trails in stride, careful going downhill, wasn’t spooked by irrigation pump going off as we rode by. No jigging, loose rein the whole time.

I think folks are on to something that he might be more afraid than not, and the spanking on trail has not been helpful. More sensitive than I suspect and needs more praise than I have offered.

He is my 4th horse, but I never had to deal with this issue before. Re: trust, I don’t want it to be a problem, but I it is in the back of my mind that his “fast reverse” resistance could back me off a cliff that if not fixed. I have also never had a horse offer a rear before – and I wonder if it is part of the same resistance continuum. But for now, I just want to believe that I have created a barn sour horse and that is all it is!

[cloudy18]

I may be repeating advice here, I apologize in advance. Have you looked into Warwick Schiller at all? I think you might find his videos helpful. You can get a free trial subscription, but he also has videos on YouTube that might be helpful. One big thing to remember that he and most trainers say is to make the right easy and the wrong thing hard. If you ride out alone and your horse is refusing 100 yards from the barn, ride back to where he’s comfortable and put him to work. Be nice about it, but make him work. Head away from the barn again, repeat as needed. You don’t have to end with him happily walking off into the woods on day one. You may be happy getting him to go 200 yards (or less), but end on a good note and do it again the next time.

I also found it very helpful to just lead my green mare on trails at first. If he will follow you willingly, you can lead him until you think the barn is less of a draw and then hop on.

I also feel that you might have a gelding like ours. He appears fine on the outside but is uncertain and worried more than you’d think. Trying to bully him into going forward is only going to make him more worried. Have you done any groundwork with him? This could really help him learn to trust you more, and would help with his ground manners, as well as his forward button under saddle. Is there a decent trainer in the area that could show you some groundwork? Avoid anyone with the “show him who’s boss” mentality.

Our gelding also likes to back up when uncertain. He’s been ridden so sporadically, but when he does it I have my husband make him work a little, whatever the trail allows. I want him to learn that if he’s that uncertain then a stop its okay, backing is not. Our issue is that the horse hasn’t had much trail experience and hasn’t been ridden consistently with us, so he’s just uncertain. I have to keep my expectations reasonable until we can put in the work. This doesn’t mean being a pushover, it just means being fair.

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[ChestnutArabianMare]

From what you’ve said, it might be more of a confidence issue than a stubbornness issue. Like Cloudy18, I’ve been starting my green-ish spooky mare on trail riding and we’ve had great luck with hand-walking out from the barn until she’s nice and relaxed and only then do I hop on - she’s quicker to relax every time. We’ve also worked on installing solid “go forward” cues on the ground and being sent over obstacles in hand. Now she’s happily leading and going down new trails and holding it together even when her steady-eddy buddy gets worried.

[BlueDrifter]

@cloudy18 et al –

I would like to think it is a confidence issue, as I have a hard time believing a horse intentionally wants to be disobedient… but I also have a problem believing a horse doesn’t want to get out of his stall and go for hack.

This past week, if any backing occurred on the barn property, my trainer encouraged me to be more insistent on “go forward” kicks/spurs, and that has helped. I was able to nip the behavior before it became a major issue.

However we went out on trail together and twice – while out on trail away from sight of barn and with another horse – he began backing and wanting to turn around. One time he was backing me down a hill. If my trainer had not been saying “kick him forward” I would have likely been further down the hill or opted to turn him around to avoid it. As it was, we proceeded forward, and he acts like “no big deal” He isn’t fussing or jiggy, just walking along like it didn’t happen!

I can understand barn sour when you are leaving the barn – but 30 minutes out? They can be barn sour that far away from the barn – out of the blue?

I haven’t scheduled the vet check yet – hard to ask them to come out and check for pain when the only symptom seems to be balky/barn sour. (Remember he has done this with trainer in the middle of schooling – just stopped and said "i’m done!’ until she encouraged him forward again – it isn’t just barn sourness.) What would I ask them to check – a lameness exam?

We have done groundwork, but it hasn’t been as easy as it has with other horses. He does lunging/ridden work much better than being directed with halter to move his feet from the ground. (turn on forehand/haunches/sidepass/disengage). In fact, since being ridden regularly, his groundwork has gotten better. When I first got him, he was bracey on ground and would nip when asked to move over. He is still a little nippy/fussy if held by halter under his chin and asked to back up, or if led with too close a hold on him – but the nippiness has pretty much disappeared.

An enigma for sure. I am not giving up. So more groundwork and Warwick Schiller (I have seen his youtube stuff, but I will subscribe) and another week of trying to figure out/understand his trigger.

Here he is, with my trainer. He is a Hancock bred AQHA horse – I have heard they sometimes have a stubborn personality – but my appys/trakehner that I owned previously also had same reputation, and I never found them to be difficult. Of course, they didn’t have a ranch background, either…

Thanks for all your help and suggestions

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[beau159]

OP, you probably should just give up. You can ship him to me. I will bear the burden of taking him off your hands.

…Okay that was totally sarcastic because you have one pretty looking horse there! :yes: Love me a nice blue roan!

I’ve personally never had a Hancock-bred horse but I’ve heard that is their reputation as well = stubborn. Of course, all horses are their own individuals. (My Mr. Illuminator bred barrel horse is supposed to be a bronc but I am glad no one told him that!!)

@BlueDrifter

I can understand barn sour when you are leaving the barn – but 30 minutes out? They can be barn sour that far away from the barn – out of the blue?

Sure they can. They can decide they are “done” at any point. It happens.

And if you really think about it, there are varying degrees of “barn sour”. Let me use my horse as an example. Whenever we are riding in the direction away from the barn, if I am letting him walk, he is god-awful slow and stops frequently (if I let him). He never balks and or spins or refuses to go forward or anything like that, but he is SLOOOOOOW. It drives me crazy. So the last couple months I decided I’m done letting him “get away with it” and I demand a nice walk with a good cadence when we are walking away from the barn. And he figured it out pretty quick.

Heading towards home? Oh heck, he’s on a mission. Loose rein, fast walk, level head. It’s fabulous. I love it.

But the leaving the barn as at snail’s pace was so annoying. And one could argue, being a bit barn sour perhaps.

Now, of course, that’s not the issue you are having, but just goes to show horses can decide to do things in varying degrees and at any time.

While a good lookover with a lameness vet sure isn’t going to hurt anything, I wouldn’t be so sure it’s pain related. Seems too random (but who knows - doesn’t hurt to check).

Especially on a horse that tends to backup (or even rear) when things don’t go their way, it is so important to maintain that forward motion in any way that you can get it. I can understand it being tough when you have a narrow path on the trail, but anything you can do to keep those front feet moving will help. I’d much rather get a horse to pivot around, rather than they keep backing up while I am trying to bump them with my feet. They’re clearly not listening to me when I’m asking them to go forward, so in my mind, I need to change things up to get them to listen.

Whips and spurs can sometimes be the answer, but if you say he just backs up faster, I would say that is NOT the case here. You don’t want him to get in better shape of backing up. :winkgrin: Or worse, decide he’s had enough and rear.

@BlueDrifter

@cloudy18
Can you actually create a sour attitude in your horse just by being a beginner?

I would say he is taking advantage of you for being a beginner.

You said that he will try to refuse for trainer, but trainer calls the BS flag on him, and then he gives in and goes on his way. He recognizes that trainer won’t take any BS from him and he knows it.

Most horses choose the path that requires the least amount of work. Turning around and going home is less work.

I would say you are on the right track. Keep working with your trainer and keep taking lessons. She’s seeing what he’s doing in front of you, so she can coach you on the spot and help you through it. He just needs to learn that you aren’t going to take his BS either!!

[pAin_t_Misbehavin]

Wow, what a looker!:love-struck:
I could be completely off-base with this, but since you asked what the vet might check for? I’d want her to do some x-rays and look for any early signs of arthritis in his joints.
I’ve had a couple of those “more whoa than go” type horses, who were, like yours, always thinking “back” - pulling back; backing up; staying behind the rider’s leg even when moving forward. One of them also reared. Both showed arthritic changes in their joints on x-ray.
Now, of course, that’s a sample size of two, so take it for what it’s worth. But if you knew he had some ouchies going on, an Equioxx every day or even every other day might really help his attitude.
And if the x-rays are clear then you have them for a baseline in case you need them for comparison later on as he ages.

[BlueDrifter]

Hi guys!

Thanks for those compliments (on his behalf)! He has a kind eye, too. Which makes you wonder how all that opinion can exist inside him, lol.

Yes, we should probably call this the BS Flag – and how I haven’t mastered it with him yet. Trainer took him out on trail twice, alone, and she said there were no issues. Actually, when I first got him, at a different barn, others took him out on trail and never mentioned barn sourness as a problem, although I had already started to see signs of it just being on barn property.

All pointing to me! Arggh.

I think @cloudy18 is right about him being more sensitive than I give him credit for, and @Corky is right about how he probably fears a whip/kick/spurs with me as he heads toward trail. I need to break that association.

This horse is going to make me a better rider, that is for sure!

[beau159]

@BlueDrifter

Trainer took him out on trail twice, alone, and she said there were no issues.

This supports to me that it is NOT pain related, and he just simply has your number, if he’s usually fine for your trainer but not for you.

[SuzieQNutter]

I had a students horse that was the same he refused to leave.

I rode him and it took a lot of skill at the start but yes I could ride him out. She could not We had to wait for her to skill to increase.

This was also shown to me at a trail ride place.

The horses were used to this and I had the advanced kids. We waited at the bottom of the hill and went up at a gallop one at a time. Poppy had been there longer than me and she took her rider up the hill out of turn. The student was made to bring her back down and Poppy did it again.

We brought her back down again and I mounted her and sat on her with the buckle on the neck. She did not move one step.

Put the student back on and they sailed up the hill again.

2 other horses Sim and Tristan. I don’t have any problem stopping hidden from a gallop. I don’t pull. The horses stop for me when I sit up. Not as skilled and the horses don’t stop even though the rider is doing a lot more than me.

It is not just what you do it is how you do it. How you sit. How you breathe and how slow or fast your heart is beating.

[shiloh]

OP, your horse is GORGEOUS! I love his coloring. And yes, I have heard too that Hancock bred can have quite a stubborn streak. He may have your number but that can be changed. My last horse - after 30 minutes on the trail, nope I’m done time to go home. And in the arena - he knew when an hour was up. The arena thing we never really got over, but the trail thing, I just kept persisting. I had to make it clear that I had all day and no matter what he was going forward. Didn’t care if he was gracious about it or not, so long as he went. We did many a zig zag down the road, sidepasses, and even halfpass a couple times (using his anger against him). No backing up as he would use that against you and never any circles as he would turn those into spins with his head around his knees so you had no horse in front of you. I got off a few times and dragged his happy ass down the road. I don’t think it matters what you do so long as you show them that you ARE going to insist and that you have all day to do it in. Good luck to you!!!

[Palm_Beach]

I personally don’t like to butt heads with a horse. They are bigger and stronger and can usually out-butt. If I start having a little forward issue, I will turn the horse’s head and kick kick kick then in a circle and then let them out of the circle and leave them alone. If they stop again, kick kick kick in a circle. They can’t kick or run backwards or buck or anything. I don’t get much of this in the ring since my groundwork is good and so there is no reason to stop in the ring, but I have had one that was very mistrustful of stream crossings and would stop. Fine with me, we will just circle on the bank until you walk forward. Works like a charm.