Creating the “Seeing Eye Dog”

[fivestrideline]

There are two trains of thought that I’ve heard on this, on creating a horse that hunts its own distances. Both acknowledge that some of it is innate talent on the horse’s part.

One is that a pro ride for training creates a horse that knows a “correct” distance, because it is rarely put to an “incorrect” one.

The other is that a young horse eventually allowed to make mistakes and extricate itself accordingly will learn that it’s easier to arrive at a “good” distance. Provided the rider does not actively interfere, of course.

Thoughts? Any horse that can find the jumps (or, at least have some sort of self preservation about it) is highly valuable regardless of movement and maintenance. I would love to hear exercises and methods that have worked for people, besides buying one and getting lucky

[Rel6]

I’ve always thought it was a combination of the two. You set the horse up for the correct distance and let them learn what that feels like, and then eventually stop setting them up for it and allow them to make mistakes they have the muscle memory of what is “correct” to fall back on. They know there is something more comfortable than the chip or the flyer.

I think a horse that is set up 100% of the time doesn’t have a bank of reference to know what to do when the rider misses or makes a mistake. The horse that is never set up correctly and always allowed to figure it out itself may be able to safely get it itself out of trouble from anywhere, but not be able to “find” the happy medium correct one because it doesn’t know that option.

As far as exercises and things that have worked for people, I’m curious what others say! IMO so much of it is really temperament and time. With a young one, I think the biggest key is getting them to hold a consistent canter around a course without a change in rhythm so that way there is a distance to “find”.

[NancyM]

I’ve always thought that the horse is smarter than me about his own body, his own capabilities. His eye is better than mine, and it’s not my job to jump the fence. My job is busy enough with pace, line, balance, rhythm, and carriage. If I do my job correctly, a talented horse can jump from where ever he gets to. If he can’t jump from there, I’ve done something wrong with my responsibilities. Don’t even try to make an untalented horse jump.

My job is to learn the course, get on, sit down, shut up, and steer (while looking after the above rider’s responsibilities). Division of labour gets the job done best.

[Bonnie2]

Agree with everything Rel6 said. I will add it is partly the innate talent of the individual horse. The owner/breeder of a western pleasure horse asked me to teach him to jump because he pretty clearly needed a different career. That horse knew how to jump. He would make anyone look good. I’m not a great rider but I have some good exercises in my tool box and I’ve started a fair number of horses but that one was born with rhythm and an eye for the perfect spot. He was an awesome children’s hunter and taught several young ladies to jump and show.

[IPEsq]

I think it’s more innate in some of them but it also takes consistent and tactful riding in my experience.

One component is accurate riding but being sure to soften before the jump. With a green horse who may not be that balanced on the hind legs or super straight or easy to keep in the rhythm, you may need to manage the horse all the way there. But whenever possible, reward the right thing before takeoff. And no grabby hands on landing even with one who gets quick at first. Some horses see jumping as fun. Others see it maybe as more “work”. You have to sometimes manufacture places to be soft and to give just like with any other exercise. The more you can reward in a way that allows the horse to do the job softly, that will carry over when the in between rideability part improves. The horse might make mistakes (too slow to respond to a move up cue, trouble shortening or rocking back, drifting to the side) that makes the distances less than ideal, but abandoning it to bad distances frequently so they can just “figure it out” is a recipe for confidence issues, and lack of confidence is not a quality of a seeing eye dog horse. On occasion, it’s a schooling moment for their mistake, but more often than not the green horse sees it as your mistake, because if they really understood the importance of pace, straightness and balance, they’d be doing it like a broke horse already. A more experienced horse also needs support at the jump if the rider has screwed up and gotten to the bad distance because the rider did not properly manage pace and track. “Lying” to the horse enough creates a stop or a crash.

But you can go overboard with always placing the horse exactly where you want. Do not hold the horse too round that he can’t look up and ahead at the top rail. Do not always be exacting with where his feet are once he can carry himself a bit. I think this is where a little bit of hunter rider style can be super beneficial, especially to ones that were only pro rides over in Europe. When the horse comes out of the corner and looks up and ahead at the jump, then you can get the feeling of mutually seeing / hunting the distance. This is a great feeling.

I think these things in combination, once the horse is well broke meaning can be ridden precisely on a track and is really good at going forward and back, lengthening and shortening, and has good self carriage, the horse has the experience and the balance to cover up some less than perfect distances. Perhaps he knows when to tune out a rider who is clearly wrong. But there is a limit to that based on the scope and rangy-ness of the horse (basic athleticism) as to how nice the picture will be while the horse is saving the day.

[GoodTimes]

A horse that is naturally elastic and stays in front of the leg is going to have a far easier time making small adjustments at the base. They don’t necessarily find every distance on their own, but they have an easier time adapting and making that not so great spot look good.
They can lengthen or shorten that last stride or two without losing momentum.

[Salty]

My Fearless Leader taught me to allow the horse to make mistakes over low fences so he can learn from them. He was also big on placing poles and gymnastic work. He didn’t want our horses to be reliant on us placing them to a perfect spot.

He also said that all spots can work if the balance, line, tempo, and impulsion are correct.

I’ve been able to successfully create seeing eye horses using his methods.

[phoenixrises]

I think these are all good insight. But I’ll also say I’ve met a number of horses who just like the “wrong” distance, some are like I can take it from here and you do a flier, and other’s like to burry to every single jump.

[fivestrideline]

Definitely depends on the horse!

I’ve ridden some that will jump better on the gap, and some that prefer to pat the ground and get to the base. You learn to adapt the ride to suit them, but I’ve also sat on some that are pretty darn good at going “lady you’re seeing things. We are going to do this instead”. Love those saints

I’m a big believer in placing poles and gymnastics for teaching the babies to jump - I’m not a fan of just cantering them at stuff, especially if they aren’t quite balanced on the flat yet. I like to pop them over stuff early (trotting over logs and brush on the trail or going to school tadpole stuff on the XC course), but I don’t like full jump schools before they can do basic flatwork. We will trot crossrail courses at schooling shows to get them out, but the focus is on flatwork.

[Foitin]

Interesting question for sure. I’ve got a baby right now and agree that cantering them at small jumps is not a great technique, he really has little idea where his feet are. We do a lot of trotting jumps, he is pretty good at that and it leaves me time to grab some mane and to stay out of his way at his often exuberant efforts. I have a 12 year old lease horse who came back from a year long lease a true seeing eye dog. The trainer was a master of 2’6 riders and horses and by the time he returned, he was not only a king of the Bit o’ Straw but would come out of the corner and take the child/adult to the jump at an energetic but not running pace. The horse is small and not giantly strided and he came to know that. He lands and immediately gets going up the line and then looks for the next one. My thought is that he spent many a lesson taking his green rider over courses of poles and tiny crossrails, alternating with rides from the trainer who taught him to GO out of the corner and to reach or to back himself off until he could go comfortably. We are grateful to this trainer!

[Tha_Ridge]

@phoenixrises

But I’ll also say I’ve met a number of horses who just like the “wrong” distance, some are like I can take it from here and you do a flier, and other’s like to burry to every single jump.

I think that’s all rider-created, though.

[fivestrideline]

@Foitin

I have a 12 year old lease horse who came back from a year long lease a true seeing eye dog

These are the types of trainers I’d send a baby to for finishing. Worth every penny!

[Lost_Shoe]

One exercise that I have used with my horses under my trainer’s supervision to help cultivate the horse’s judgement on when to leave the ground is to canter the horse on a long approach to a single low jump with a ground line but no placement poles: look up beyond the jump and do nothing. Absolutely nothing (not interfering and not “helping” either). The horse will likely get in “wrong”. Then try again, again with no absolutely interference or assistance from the rider. The horse will learn from their “mistake” and get in better the next time, all on their own. It is amazing! Through this method they all learned to consistently get themselves to good distances by learning from their mistakes in a safe environment. And these are not fancy or “talented” horses by any means.

*Edited for clarity.

[Demerara_Stables]

A lot of this is correct around focusing on pace, adjustability, flatwork, and letting them make their own mistakes over small stuff.

I’ll add that I longe mine over small fences regularly as babies (this is how they learn to jump), and even the aged horses longe over fences when I’m working on improving their pace and their eye. I start longeing them over poles as 2yos, and over small (less than 2’) fences as 2-3yos, starting at the trot and then the canter. This makes them much more confident when you start jumping u/s and they “get it” sooner u/s. For aged horses that need help with their eye, the issues I see when they’re longed over fences come from lack of strength and balance (which is really a lack of strength). If they run at the fence and take a flyer or chip, they need to get stronger. Once they can rock back, even the ones not bred to jump figure it out and do quite well.

[2bayboys]

I remember visiting Olin Armstrong’s farm many years ago and he had a small covered round pen that he put jumps in and sent the young horses around and around to teach them how to manage their feet and their bodies without a rider. It was basically a jump chute but on a circle. This was before round pen training was a thing and I was fascinated by the idea.

[BITSA]

That’s a nature/nurture thing. I will say that the horse I bought as a 4 yo and I ride (but in full training) from the start, took a joke all day long and had the best brain and could find his way into and out of things that I put him in. Mistake were part of his upbringing. But he was also an exceptional soul. I later bought a young rider school master who was used to much better riders than me and not super tolerant of my ammy errors (and does much better with my confident teen).

[Tha_Ridge]

@2bayboys

I remember visiting Olin Armstrong’s farm many years ago and he had a small covered round pen that he put jumps in and sent the young horses around and around to teach them how to manage their feet and their bodies without a rider. It was basically a jump chute but on a circle. This was before round pen training was a thing and I was fascinated by the idea.

It still exists. @Railbird can attest! But yes, growing up in Texas in the late '90s, my trainer regularly lunged the hunters in a similar manner. It’s very, very useful.