Creosote-treated douglas fir- Fencing? Barn?

[StaceyA]

Hi everyone,

I want to open discussion on using creosote-treated douglas fir logs, which were used for docks in the passed, for barn structures or fence posts. I know an individual, who owns a timber yard, that has access to truck-loads of them. These particular logs rested in the water for about 85 years and the owner of the timber yard that has them was intending to use them to build a barn, before his daughter developed other interests.

My main question is whether or not the creosote is going to hurt the environment if it is put it in the ground?

Before anyone mentions toxicity to cribbers, from my research it seems to be less of a concern as the horses don’t even want to touch it.

What is everyone’s opinion or concern?

[Calamber]

I don’t know if creosote is as problematic to the environment as many of the environmentalists suggest. It does keep wood from rotting very well, hence the 85 year old posts from the water. My biggest concern would be upon selling the property since people are so opposed to it now.

[HorseShopping]

We built our initial fencing in 2008 and used creosote treated fence posts and fence boards. Was saddened when it was no longer available when we wanted to do some more fencing a couple years later. No harm to horses, barn cats or pasture, at least so far…

[Dramapony_misty]

I don’t know if I would build a barn with them (isn’t creosote the stuff that builds up in chimneys and cause fires?), but I would totally use them for fencing.

[horsepoor]

If they spent that long in the water, you’d think the environmental damage from the chemical leaching would have already occured. At least, that’s my first thought! We have creosote treated RR ties that were used in another location for some 30 years or so and then repurposed to various uses around our place. They weren’t in water, having been used for landscape type things (above, not in, ground), but had significant rot in many of them – so that also leads me to wonder if the poles coming out of water would be structurally sound enough to support a building. Disposal is also an issue, if you have pieces left over (or like us, rotten chunks) as it can’t be burned, and must go into a lined landfill type place. At least that’s how it is here.

As for chewing deterrent, I have the creosote RR ties at two ends of my arena and my horses will take any opportunity to grab a chunk off of them. And go back for more. I have a pasture on the outside of the arena and had to double fence so they would stop grabbing the RR ties.

[Calvincrowe]

I wouldn’t use them as structural supports in a barn, but as fence posts, yes. But…if they spent 85 years underwater…I find it very difficult to believe they are in good condition. Was it cold, fresh water? Hmm. Maybe.

As Horsepoor said, RR ties do rot, slowly, but they don’t last forever. They smell, and the creosote will rub off on you and horses–it’s kind of tarry.

[ElementFarm]

I agree with other posters and wouldn’t use them to build a barn. But they are GREAT for fencing.
Our farm is perimeter fenced with creosote half rounds and top rail over no-climb, and cross fenced with creosote pine split rail. Some of the fencing is over 20 years old but is still in great shape and looks practically new. We just fenced in an additional paddock and chose to go with creosote again (it’s still available and in wide-use in this area). I just hope it’s still commercially available when we’re ready to fence in another large field (likely 2017). The horses have shown no tendency to chew on it (though I don’t own cribbers) and it stands up to weather and time exceptionally well. Best of all: NO MAINTENANCE!!!

[clanter]

In north Texas there is a re-saw mill in Bowie that takes old utility pole sawing them into lumber for fences and such.

http://sticesawmill.net/

I have been in one high end barn in the Pilot Point/Tioga area that the interior is completely done in this re-sawed material

My concern would be possible exposure to the fumes that may be a human carcinogen. The EPA says “Creosote is a possible human carcinogen and has no registered residential uses.”

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/creosote_prelim_risk_assess.htm

[StaceyA]

Thanks for the educational responses everyone, my brain wheels are turning.

I’ve just purchased a property that requires all fencing and a barn; I might entertain the thought of using the poles for fencing. I spoke to the man who’s offering them, and he said they’re sound logs. Unfortunately I’m not an expert in being able to tell whether or not they’ll be okay but he’s a close friend and owns a timber mill so I’m thinking trust would be okay.

Does anyone know about their affect on the environment? I hesitate as our property contains two very healthy ponds. If there’s any question as to whether or not they’ll injure the wildlife in the ponds, I won’t consider them. I understand the logs were previously in water but who knows if they did any damage there…

[csaper58]

Here, as the wood dries the creosote oozes to the surface of the wood. Anything brushing against gets sticky with creosote.

The EPA lists it as a human carcinogen, so don’t use where horses chew on wood. EPA Docket (#OPP-20030248).

Google Creosote Environmental Effects. Here, Creosote plants have been shut down for years and it is no longer used to treat wood.

[Calamber]

You are not correct, creosote is still being used in the United States, if that is what you are referring to as “here”. Utility poles and railroad ties are still being used in many areas that are routinely treated with creosote.

http://gulfcoasttreated.com/creosote-treated-wood

Here is the EPA’s short winded exposition on it, the longer winded one has to admit that it still does not know if it negatively affects the environment as the work is still “preliminary”. It is not to be used in residences nor near groundwater. I grew up where creosote was everywhere on every piling, utility pole, fences for the horses, wharves, water breaks and walkways of every type. I have had it on me for many years yet, when I was tested for every conceiveable kind of toxicity, I was toxic from lead, mercury and mold. It is excreted pretty easily by the body waste.

http://www2.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/creosote

[Ambitious_Kate]

My understanding is that creosote is not toxic to the environment on wood, it stays on the wood, but I could be wrong. Its used on railroad ties and utility poles and USED to be used on barns but now is illegal for building structures, not because of any toxicity but because it is a fire hazard. Very flamable. I think its a kind of sap from a plant, like the Creosote bush, which can burst into flame in really hot weather. Anyway I would absolutely use it as fence poles or out door treated landscaping or poles. No barns, though

[Foxtrot_s]

When we came her 40 years ago, the fences were old and had old railway tie posts back then…we replaced them this year for pressure treated 4x4’s.

The ties had rotted from the inside.

If you ever plan to have ‘organic’ designation, then these would definitely not be an option.

[Calamber]

Arsenic and copper sulfate (arsenic is no longer used), are pretty toxic chemicals and are known to invade the environment. Creosote comes from a couple of different sources and is not restricted because it is flammable.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/PHS/PHS.asp?id=64&tid=18

[dog_amp_horsemom]

I know of two gentlemen who dies from Leukemia ( which is an environmental cancer) and they both worked with creosote. One in the railroad and the other creosoting fencing.

[csaper58]

Calamber… perhaps you are not correct.

Call the toll free # on the ‘gulfcoasttreated’ contact page. Not USA gulf coast?
Gulf Coast Creosote Corp. in New Iberia La. closed. That web site appears to be a phishing site.

The EPA page you referenced… "Creosote is not approved to treat wood for residential use, including landscape timbers, garden borders, or wood that may contact food.

I don’t build housing for my animals out of materials I would not build my dwelling with.

[csaper58]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8330796]
You are not correct, creosote is still being used in the United States, if that is what you are referring to as “here”. Utility poles and railroad ties are still being used in many areas that are routinely treated with creosote.

http://gulfcoasttreated.com/creosote-treated-wood

Here is the EPA’s short winded exposition on it, the longer winded one has to admit that it still does not know if it negatively affects the environment as the work is still “preliminary”. It is not to be used in residences nor near groundwater. I grew up where creosote was everywhere on every piling, utility pole, fences for the horses, wharves, water breaks and walkways of every type. I have had it on me for many years yet, when I was tested for every conceiveable kind of toxicity, I was toxic from lead, mercury and mold. It is excreted pretty easily by the body waste.

http://www2.epa.gov/ingredients-used-pesticide-products/creosote[/QUOTE]

Saved.

[Calamber]

Here is another one scaper, not sure why you thought you needed to save that, but here is one that I called that treats their wood products with creosote. All I am trying to show you is that it is still produced and used in the USA and that the EPA findings are still considered preliminary, I don’t recommend eating or drinking it.

http://www.bmwoodproducts.com/contactus.htm

[Ambitious_Kate]

Am I mistaken or senile or something or did “we” paint creosote on the stall wood to keep the horses from chewing on it? Until it was banned from barns for firehazard, but I seem to remember…I could be wrong. It just made me think that horses won’t chew on it.

[csaper58]

www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/creosote_prelim_risk_assess.htm

This report was preliminary back in August 2007.

Yes, A.K. I remember that too. We also use to think smoking and driving drunk were no big deal. We live, we learn

The creosote used to treat wood is made from coal, not the creosote bush.