Crooked Horse -- Chiropractor? Saddle Fitter? (MoCo MD)

[Strangeways]

I wrote about this pony’s crookedness before. He approved since then, until about a month ago. Pony became very heavy on the left rein. He’s always had this problem, but it’s become very bad again after a period of improvement. I’m concerned pony may be in pain. His bodywork (Masterson Method) hasn’t treated him in a while, so I think he’s overdue. The bodyworker did a quick evaluation, and thinks he has some cervical “blocks.” I’m also concerned that we may have a saddle fit problem because his Friday bareback ride was considerably better than his Thursday saddled ride.

I’ve attached some pictures below to see if anyone has seen conformational/postural problems like this before. You can see the left shoulder is slightly popped, then the neck angles out to the right, and finally you see a bulge at the upper-left of the neck, which is caused but his twisting his head to the right. These twists put a lot of pressure on the left rein. I’ve seen plenty of popped shoulders before, but the twisting of the neck and the amount of pressure on one rein is less familiar to me. I’m wondering if he needs a chiropractor in addition to his masseuse. He loves his masseuse, but she’s relatively new practitioner. Perhaps a more experienced bodyworker could have additional insights. As I’ve said, he’s had this problem for while, and the Masterson massages have only helped to a degree. So if anyone has experience with bodyworking neck problems, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts. Also, I’d appreciate recommendations for chiropractors in Montgomery Co. Maryland.

I’m also looking for independent saddle fitters in MoCo because I suspect we have a saddle fit problem. The saddle was only informally fit by the some folks at the barn, and I’m worried that was a mistake. He’s never shown any obvious discomfort with the saddle, but as I said, the recent bareback ride showed improvement. I’m thinking the saddle may be too long for a 13 hh pony.

[Scribbler]

Do you do any lateral work? Look up straightness training. Various ways to develop more symmetrical muscling and balance.

[Renn_aissance]

You might call Wolf Creek Equine for chiropractic. They’re in Lothian, so I’m not sure if they’d travel to your area, but they used to have a fairly wide travel range and if not they have a clinic and may do ship-ins. Their practice used to do chiropractic and other care for our barn. I think Dr. Mende is excellent.

[Libby2563]

Independent saddle fitter from Sykesville who travels to MoCo: Gina Perilla, (443) 386-5396

DVM chiropractor based in Boyds: Dr. Ruth Stokes, (301) 938-8991

(Both of those numbers are Google-able so I think it’s okay for me to post them.)

Have his teeth been checked?

[Texarkana]

@Renn_aissance

You might call Wolf Creek Equine for chiropractic. They’re in Lothian, so I’m not sure if they’d travel to your area, but they used to have a fairly wide travel range and if not they have a clinic and may do ship-ins. Their practice used to do chiropractic and other care for our barn. I think Dr. Mende is excellent.

I use Dr. Mende, too. If she travels all the way to my area, I imagine she would travel to Montgomery county. I’m twice the distance away in the opposite direction.

[Strangeways]

Thanks for the recommendations. As for lateral work, we started working on it in earnest last fall. We only do a small amount at a time because it makes him anxious. Hard to say whether it has ever helped with suppleness as you’d expect. But regardless, attempting to do lateral work NOW makes the unilateral pressure WORSE. This is one of the reasons I suspect pain. As for his teeth, I doubt they’ve been examined in some time. I don’t own said pony, although I do handle his bodywork with the owner’s permission. Everything else vet/farrier related the owner addresses. I can mention it however.

[SonnysMom]

I like using Tara Renee Miliziano of Forward Motion Equine as an independent saddle fitter. She is both a human and horse massage therapist. I have had her massage my horses and do saddle fit. I think her additional knowledge of horse anatomy helps with the saddle fitting. She is based out of Zionsville PA but I am pretty sure will go to where you are. I think she is currently in FL.

[IPEsq]

Diagonal asymmetries and twisting is a common compensatory pattern. It doesn’t always come from the area of most tension (the mouth in your case), but it’s worth checking things like teeth because that’s easy enough.

Front end asymmetry can easily come from the hind end. They drag themselves around with the contralateral front, which puts more muscle on that shoulder. Maybe makes them lean on the other shoulder (hollowing the base of the neck on that side), so they counterbalance that with the upper neck.

Certainly a saddle can contribute or at least not help things, but the origin of the problem could be anywhere really.

[J-Lu]

I’m sorry, maybe you have thought of this and done this.

Have a good trainer who doesn’t know your horse do an evaluation ride. They tend to be unbiased. Check with the saddle fitter. Check with your own trainer about the problem.

My horse would tend to get crooked like that because he likes to cheat, shoulder-in on large circles has really helped him shape his body to my aids (rather than his idea of going) was helpful. You can ride a good 20m circle for a bit to put a track in, and then do shoulder-in and see that the front end is on the 20m while the hind end is on 21 or 22m. It’s hard for the horse. Do shoulder-fore if your horse is below second level. Same thing.

I had my vet, a licensed chiro work on him at one point.

I think you need to rule things out:

Your horse’s physical comfort (vet or chiro). Kissing spines? Other issues?
Your horse’s way of going (very good rider)
Your way of riding (good trainer). My horse will try to cheat or predict by bulging the shoulder and being crooked but I’ll sometimes smack him with the whip on the shoulder or counter-bend him with my seat and leg and he says, usually, “Yes, Ma’am”. But it is worth noting he does this almost ALL THE TIME in the warm-up, it’s like a habit he has to do first and then he complies the rest of the ride.

Do you feel this is a habit or a real evasion?

[Strangeways]

The “origin of the problem could be anywhere” is what I’m afraid of. The bodyworker has said that she often gets a response at the right hip, which would make sense with the popped left shoulder at least in common wisdom. But the bodyworker never provides a diagnosis. She tells me where his hotspots are, but there’s no synthesis. I’m sure I’m expecting to much.

[Strangeways]

My trainer rode him last week during our lesson. She was shocked. She said he was worse, at least to the right, than when we first started working with him 2.5 years ago. She even said I make him look good. She could tell he wasn’t straight, she could tell he was heavy, but she didn’t realize how bad it was. The twisting of head is deceptive. When I got back on, I could tell my trainer had lightened him on the left rein, but it didn’t last very long for me.

Habit or evasion? It’s a habit in that it’s his posture. When I first started riding him, he was counter-bent as in he was counter-bent for every step he took even if he was just walking in a straight line. We believe the crookedness is the result of natural posture and harsh training techniques. Perhaps he twisted to avoid a heavy right hand. Regardless, he was never taught about relaxion or contact or even how to bend in a turn. Anyway, in time, he learned to straighten in response to my leg and the occasional tap with a crop on the shoulder. But he couldn’t “hold it;” we’d count the number of steps he took before popping his left shoulder/ribs. However, at the end of last year, he started to do a couple laps around a small laps without correction.

And now he’s relapsed. And it doesn’t seem like the typical training setback. Also, it’s not a subtle thing he does when challenged. He has a death grip on the left rein the entire time when you’re going right, and a slightly-less-than-death grip when going left. You have nothing in the right rein.

Could it also be an evasion? Maybe, in part. We started doing more lateral work and it made him anxious. It was like his pony brain saying, “Leg means forward! Leg means forward! What do you want!” But we never drilled it, and he picked up the basic idea in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps he now has this idea that he needs to be a bit “sideways” all the time. Possible support for this idea – I popped him over a tiny fence a couple time at the end of a ride and he relaxed on the left rein a bit. He likes jumping – it’s clearly what he did before – so maybe he forgot about the “sideways” stuff and loosened up. But obviously this is all just conjecture.

[anon68314200]

Marijke de Jong Straightness Training. Or Brent Branderup. Giacommini and Manolo Mendez have good things to offer also. Actually…. I need practice clients for a Straightness Training course I am taking. If you are willing to work by video, I would love to chat with you. (No charge from me, as I am practicing. But you might want to get a Pivo, or similar)

[J-Lu]

Lordie!

OK, I suggest maybe you try different bodyworkers?

A good friend purchased a 2 year old whose movement she liked. Her former trainer said the horse looked like he was wearing a diaper. The chiro said that as well. After 1 year of work, the horse was literally transformed. IT was suspected she tried to jump out of the pasture at a very young age and I believe that was later comfirmed by the breeder.

My barn has brought in a bodyworker to work the horses. The BO had a going lame and then lame horse, and I believe the body worker helped and helped nail the issues with the formal inquiries with the vet and podiatrist and farrier. A team worked on that horse.

Does your horse listen to your aids to always go in correct bend? In my experience, bend is really easy to teach, unlike things like contact which take more time. I’m sure your horse couldn’t hold the proper posture or bend. That takes muscles that are likely not developed yet. That takes time. He can do 2 laps correctly? Great. Next week, can he do 2.5? A week or two after, can he do 3? Keep going. ALL horses need corrections, it’s all about how small your aids can be that people won’t really see them.

Your horse doesn’t seem to accept the aids. That sounds like it’s your riding or it could be him. If it’s him, be patient and always spell out the aids so he understands them. There’s a reason why he doesn’t understand them now and it is your job to understand why. Maybe you aren’t clear. Maybe he doesn’t understand you. Maybe he gets nervous. Whatever. Your partnership will depend on you finding out why he reacts and reacting in a way he feels safe and comfortable reacting to.

Sure, he can think “Leg means forward!!” but it’s your job to tell him what leg means. TRUST ME, I ride a very hot horse. My last horse was very workable. I’ve had to adjust things to my hot but willing, in his brain, horse and learn how this particular horse thinks. I’ve had to teach him to “loosen” undersaddle. We’ve even jumped but I had to teach him to loosen up there, too. A great advanced level eventer, who formally broke her collar bone by being bucked off of my horse, graciously taught us to do grund poles and small jumps. Of note, my horse’s full brother was a hunter stallion.

You just have to work with what is in front of you!

[findthedistance]

How certain are you that your crooked horse is sound? I second the recommendation for Dr Ruth Stokes for chiro, and if she thinks your horse is unsound and in need of not-chiro services she’ll say so. But if there’s any chance the crookedness is being driven by a subtle lameness, it’s always best to start with that workup.

Ahimsa Equine is a trainer who is good at unraveling horses with strange body/training issues, including explaining lateral work to reluctant equine learners. She’s also a meticulous saddle fitter.

Cate & Theresa are also great saddle fitters and they are in MoCo regularly. They’re Custom reps but will work on anything and were not pushy with me. (I had other-brand wool-flocked saddles that were workable and only needed flocking adjustments. No attempts at upselling.)

[Libby2563]

@findthedistance

Ahimsa Equine is a trainer who is good at unraveling horses with strange body/training issues, including explaining lateral work to reluctant equine learners. She’s also a meticulous saddle fitter.

Do you happen to know if she still follows Art2Ride?

[findthedistance]

I don’t know how she would answer that question. I worked with her consistently for probably 18 months a couple years ago when I was riding an extremely shutdown pony with a history of abuse. At that time she was describing her general training philosophy as being in a French classical-type direction. Our lessons were geared at showing Mr Pony that moving forward could be a fun option to explore and she used a variety of techniques along the way.

[Strangeways]

UPDATE: The bodyworker worked with him last week, and found most of the tension in the left shoulder itself, which makes sense. I rode him in a lesson 24+ hours after the massage. He was MUCH BETTER! He was still counter-bent and heavier left, but it was workable and he was willing to correct. So the massage definitely helps, but I will still seek another bodyworker’s opinion. Still following-up on saddle fit too.

Is he lame? My trainer and I decided that the worst manifestation of the crookedness qualifies as “lame” if he doesn’t quickly work out of it. I don’t think his general crookedness is lameness. Although the few times he has been lame, it’s been vague “body soreness.” It’s never been an obvious joint/foot issue. He actually had a subtle bob going to the right during my last lesson. We almost quit even though the left-rein-tension was better, but then the bod disappeared. So we’re monitoring it.

As for our communication, pony typically listens to bending aides; he tries. He struggles with half-halts under circumstance, e.g. cantering to jumps, leg yields. It’s definitely not all on him; I still need work on my aides. My trainer usually gets a better response.

Thanks again for all the recommendations!

[blue_heron]

A Facebook post from January says that she is welcoming a Friesian in for “Art2Ride training,” (to me this is an oxymoron) so yes, I would say she does.

[Libby2563]

@Strangeways

UPDATE: The bodyworker worked with him last week, and found most of the tension in the left shoulder itself, which makes sense. I rode him in a lesson 24+ hours after the massage. He was MUCH BETTER! He was still counter-bent and heavier left, but it was workable and he was willing to correct. So the massage definitely helps, but I will still seek another bodyworker’s opinion. Still following-up on saddle fit too.

Yay! Do you mind sharing what bodyworker you ended up using and liking? (PM is okay if you prefer.) I always like to know who the good local practitioners are!