Crosby Prix St. George

[reithme2]

I currently ride my OTTB in a county stabilizer but have been wanting a dressage saddle for a while. I’ve been keeping my eyes peeled for a used county in a Narrow tree with skid row panels (his stabilizer setup). A fellow boarder is looking for a new saddle and had a few at the barn she was trying and I threw them on my guy just to see.

Turns out an older Crosby Prix St. George fit him pretty well (good wither clearance on his shark fin withers and no bridging, balanced from front to back) and is understandably much more affordable than a county… its also brown (my preference).

I rode him in it and he felt good and I really liked how I felt in it and liked that its pretty basic for a dressage saddle (not a ton of padding, blocks etc.). The only negative thing I noticed is that he didn’t sweat evenly in it at all. To be fair he doesnt sweat evenly in his county either… usually not a ton of sweat marks on either side of his withers. In the Crosby he didn’t sweat along the top of his back/spine. I read a review from 2008 on the Chronicle forum that the Crosby’s Prx St. George have a really narrow channel and am wondering if this could be an issue.

I’ve never known how important it is that they sweat evenly? I rode him in the crosby with a thinline sheepskin pad and am thinking I’ll try riding him without it in the Crosby and see if there is a difference. Would love to hear anyones input. There aren’t many saddle fitters in my area that aren’t repping specific brands so not sure if I could get someone out in reasonable time frame to check the fit.

[kashmere]

It’s not super tough to estimate whether the channel in a saddle is adequate for your horse’s needs. This video gives a good explanation of how to locate the supraspinous ligament and to see where the spinous processes extend to on your horse - essentially the width of the spine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv6cKLjwpt0

It’s put out by Schleese, so obviously they use one of their own saddles to demonstrate correct fit, but I actually find their entire saddle fitting video library to be very useful and amateur friendly, and not particularly overboard in terms of shilling for their brand.

Generally, older Crosbys do have very narrow channels, and I would make sure to look at the width of your horse’s spine carefully and assess whether the channel width is going to be appropriate (among other aspects of fit, of course).

[Milobloom]

I use to ride several OTTB’s in them because they where available and fit the TB’s backs well. I think nearly all Crosby’s are foam panels so I would find out a estimate to swap the panels to wool, to see f that would be a option for you. If he doesn’t sweat evenly in multiple saddles I would suspect it’s something to do with rider balance or damaged sweat glands assuming the pattern stays similar each time.
Would you be able to ride in it for a week or two that would tell you a lot about how he really likes it

[reithme2]

Thanks for the feedback!

I hadn’t seen those saddle fitting videos so that was helpful… when I got out to the barn though I’ll admit I had a hard time determining the necessary channel width on my horse. It would appear his is pretty narrow…

Yes, I can hold on to the saddle for a while and it sounds like the owner will sell it for cheap enough that I may buy it and try for a while and upgrade to a county when I can. It doesnt seem like a perfect fit when I ride without a sheepskin pad (tips forward) but feels great with a sheepskin pad and is much more pleasant to do canter work in than my county stabilizer that is as flat as possible!

[Scribbler]

I have never seen a horse sweat along the spine. Typically they sweat where the saddle is sitting or where the saddle is moving/rubbing. If the saddle has correct clearance along the spine, the pad will not be pressed against the spine and there will not be sweat there. The classic “good fit” saddle sweat marks show a clear imprint of the stuffed saddle panels, and spine dry.

I agree older English saddles have narrower channels, but can’t say whether thats a problem for your particular horse or not. Do keep in mind that the older saddles were built with TB in mind, and I understand they will tend to fit TB better than WB or the more voluptuous breeds.

However, a dry spine is a good thing.

I would be wary of Schleese on saddle fitting sweat patterns if they are the saddle maker that tells you bridging is OK. I may have them confused with another saddle fitter though.

[reithme2]

@Scribbler, Schleese doesnt promote bridging and has a video demonstrating that the panel should have even distribution across the horses back, I watched all of their videos after @kashmere linked the first regarding channel width.

Yes, he never sweats on or directly adjacent to his spine but he doesnt seem to sweat along the top of his back at all in the Crosby whereas he does in my county but is usually dry behind his withers in the county.

I agree that tack should be properly fitted, just have a hard time being confident in a GREAT saddle fit. I know enough to know its not bridging, panels fit back well, its sits balanced, good wither clearance and isn’t too long.
I will say however he feels great at the canter in the Crosby, not sure if its because I have a better seat with more support or if he may prefer it to my county in some ways…

[Scribbler]

OK, I was wrong about Schleese. I know I saw that piece of advice somewhere in my Googles. If I come across it again I will bookmark it

I am now a bit unclear on what you are saying.

When you say sweat along the top of his back, do you wet along mean the very top of his spine, under the gullet channel, or do you mean a normal sweat pattern, with the sweat stopping two or three inches away from the actual spine?

Maybe we need a picture of the saddle on the horse, and the sweat patterns too.

[reithme2]

I realize I’m being unclear and will grab a picture tonight of the sweat marks. What I mean is he doesnt seem to be sweating under the panels of the saddle at all. so no sweat for the first 10" down his back on either side but sweat on neck, under girth and saddle flaps. Just not sure how much of a red flag that is.

I’m attempting to attach the only pic I have of the saddle right now which is tacked up with girth and saddle pads… I know not super helpful.

My real question is would you rule out a saddle fit based on sweat patterns?

[Scribbler]

If there was no sweat under the saddle panels I would check to see if the saddle is bridging, because that would be my first thought. Is he sweating under the pommel and the cantle? That would suggest that the saddle is balancing on those places but not making contact under your seat. Have you checked to see if the saddle noticeably bridges there?

I shop for saddles with a set of tracings from my saddle fitter, and I rule out the ones that clearly wouldn’t fit. Then I have my saddle fitter approve and stuff to fit. She can get rid of mild bridging that way especially if the panels were a little old and flattened. So I’ve never been in the situation of trying to evaluate basic saddle fit based on sweat patterns.

[reithme2]

The saddle doesn’t bridge and as I’ve mentioned is a pretty good fit. I wasn’t able to get a pic of sweat marks last night as sassy horse has a loose shoe!

I think the saddle is a good fit, but since I don’t have an expert to confirm that at the moment I was looking for some additional support. The only ‘red flag’ I’ve seen is the lack of sweat marks under the length of the panel. I was curious if others would see this as a total ‘no go’ issue but it seems most of the feedback has been that inconsistent sweat marks aren’t a make or break thing.

Thanks for the feedback. if anyone is curious here are more pics of the saddle on horse without pads.

[kashmere]

Important disclaimer that I am not saddle fitter, nor do I play one on TV, so this opinion may in fact be worth exactly what you paid for it.

That saddle is far too narrow. The side-on view makes it look like it “fits” because it is not tilting forward or backward (although it does look as though it’s placed too far forward, as well).

The second and third pictures show a different story. Look closely at the 3rd picture - you can see that the panel to the left is sitting almost directly on the spine. I can see that it’s not 100% centered, but even if you move it over and centre it perfectly, you will have maybe half an inch of lateral clearance from the spine on either side. That is simply not enough room to accommodate the supraspinous ligament and to clear the spinal processes.

This bears out in the second picture as well - simply no room whatsoever for any lateral movement - when this horse tries to bend he’s going to feel that saddle digging right into his wither and shoulder. I suspect it will be uncomfortable enough to preclude him from engaging his abdominal muscles and lifting his back.

Riding in a saddle that is this narrow for your guy could cause serious damage long term - I would highly recommend you keep looking.

Of course, again, you will likely be best served by engaging the services of a pro - even sending these pictures to a reputable fitter should be enough for them to make a basic assessment

ETA: here is an article that does a good job - with visual aids - explaining gullet/channel width. Compare picture #3 that you posted to the picture halfway down the page of the article:

https://www.saddlerysolutions.com/the-importance-of-gullet-width/

[RainWeasley]

@kashmere

Important disclaimer that I am not saddle fitter, nor do I play one on TV, so this opinion may in fact be worth exactly what you paid for it.

That saddle is far too narrow. The side-on view makes it look like it “fits” because it is not tilting forward or backward (although it does look as though it’s placed too far forward, as well).

The second and third pictures show a different story. Look closely at the 3rd picture - you can see that the panel to the left is sitting almost directly on the spine. I can see that it’s not 100% centered, but even if you move it over and centre it perfectly, you will have maybe half an inch of lateral clearance from the spine on either side. That is simply not enough room to accommodate the supraspinous ligament and to clear the spinal processes.

This bears out in the second picture as well - simply no room whatsoever for any lateral movement - when this horse tries to bend he’s going to feel that saddle digging right into his wither and shoulder. I suspect it will be uncomfortable enough to preclude him from engaging his abdominal muscles and lifting his back.

Riding in a saddle that is this narrow for your guy could cause serious damage long term - I would highly recommend you keep looking.

Of course, again, you will likely be best served by engaging the services of a pro - even sending these pictures to a reputable fitter should be enough for them to make a basic assessment

ETA: here is an article that does a good job - with visual aids - explaining gullet/channel width. Compare picture #3 that you posted to the picture halfway down the page of the article:

https://www.saddlerysolutions.com/the-importance-of-gullet-width/

That is kind of what I was thinking, that it at least looks too narrow from the front.

[Scribbler]

@RainWeasley

That is kind of what I was thinking, that it at least looks too narrow from the front.

What are you seeing narrow in the front? The lines of the tree seem to parallel the line of the withers.

[RainWeasley]

@Scribbler

What are you seeing narrow in the front? The lines of the tree seem to parallel the line of the withers.

Maybe not narrow exactly, but like it’s pinching more at the top. Though it could just need reflocking to fill in where it’s a bit hollow lower on the withers? It just looks like a weird fit to me, but I’m not the best at judging from pics. Or really at all, I second guess myself constantly.

[kashmere]

@Scribbler

What are you seeing narrow in the front? The lines of the tree seem to parallel the line of the withers.

There is no room for lateral movement of the horse’s body, or for the shoulder blade to freely rotate up and back when the panel is hugging that tightly at the wither. From right where the stuffing/panel stops on one side of the pommel to where it begins on the other side there should be a solid 2-3 fingers worth of clearance, just the same as you measure vertical wither clearance. When the horse bends, the spine moves, and when the horse moves forward, the shoulder blade rotates both up and back, and there needs to be room to accommodate that movement.

It looks like it might be roughly the right shape - which is what I think you are seeing with the line of the tree/panel being parallel to the shoulder.

Between the very tight fit at the wither and the channel that does not accommodate the width of the spine, I would call this a non-starter. Again though, OP @reithme2 - you will very likely get conflicting opinions from folks on this board. Lots of saddle fitters will happily look at photos and provide at least a basic assessment. I still highly encourage you to seek out a professional opinion.

[reithme2]

Thanks everyone… I think I wanted it to work since it literally fell into my lap and the owner just wants it gone. I agree there are some limitations to it, mostly the narrow channel, and I should bite the bullet, get a professional saddle fitter involved and sell my current saddle so that I have a serious budget.

I appreciate the feedback!

[Scribbler]

@kashmere

Important disclaimer that I am not saddle fitter, nor do I play one on TV, so this opinion may in fact be worth exactly what you paid for it.

That saddle is far too narrow. The side-on view makes it look like it “fits” because it is not tilting forward or backward (although it does look as though it’s placed too far forward, as well).

The second and third pictures show a different story. Look closely at the 3rd picture - you can see that the panel to the left is sitting almost directly on the spine. I can see that it’s not 100% centered, but even if you move it over and centre it perfectly, you will have maybe half an inch of lateral clearance from the spine on either side. That is simply not enough room to accommodate the supraspinous ligament and to clear the spinal processes.

This bears out in the second picture as well - simply no room whatsoever for any lateral movement - when this horse tries to bend he’s going to feel that saddle digging right into his wither and shoulder. I suspect it will be uncomfortable enough to preclude him from engaging his abdominal muscles and lifting his back.

Riding in a saddle that is this narrow for your guy could cause serious damage long term - I would highly recommend you keep looking.

Of course, again, you will likely be best served by engaging the services of a pro - even sending these pictures to a reputable fitter should be enough for them to make a basic assessment

ETA: here is an article that does a good job - with visual aids - explaining gullet/channel width. Compare picture #3 that you posted to the picture halfway down the page of the article:

https://www.saddlerysolutions.com/the-importance-of-gullet-width/

Ok, that explanation makes sense.

[Saddle_Search]

@reithme2

The saddle doesn’t bridge and as I’ve mentioned is a pretty good fit. I wasn’t able to get a pic of sweat marks last night as sassy horse has a loose shoe!

I think the saddle is a good fit, but since I don’t have an expert to confirm that at the moment I was looking for some additional support. The only ‘red flag’ I’ve seen is the lack of sweat marks under the length of the panel. I was curious if others would see this as a total ‘no go’ issue but it seems most of the feedback has been that inconsistent sweat marks aren’t a make or break thing.

Thanks for the feedback. if anyone is curious here are more pics of the saddle on horse without pads.

The panels are not making contact with the back (under the cantle) as the saddle tree has too much curve for horses back, that is why it tips forward without the sheepskin. (rocking) As for the tree width, the tree points should lie parallel with the horses shoulder so as not to pinch the wither and allow the shoulder blade to clear the points when it moves back when horse is in motion.