Hi, I am wondering if it is considered acceptable to cross two different warmblood breeds like a Dutch warmblood and Hanoverian? I know that it is allowed because mares and stallions can be licensed for numerous registries, but is it looked down upon? I really like Johnson for my mare right now, and if I breed him to a him, will it impact the value of the foal because it isn’t entirely dutch or entirely Hanoverian? I know that some people can be rather intolerant about stuff like this, so I am just curious…
Also, any input on him as a sire (what type of mare he pairs best with, what he produces in terms of type, etc…) would be greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance:)
Interesting thread topic, 5B. I hope lots of Warmblood people respond.
My limited experience shows several crosses among warmblood breeds and registries. Look at the pedigrees. A [Belgian] Warmblood might have a Dutch WB sire who has one Oldenburg parent, and a Swiss WB dam with one TB parent … it looks to me like random crosses but someone knowledgeable about WB breeding can probably make sense of it.
People in Europe do that all the time, the Dutch using German horses and the Germans using for example Jazz, the Dutch using French or Belgian horses, I recently read that the Holsteiner studbook has approved two Belgian stallions. Studbooks/breeders use anything that they fancy depending on what the studbooks allow. And then in Holland there is the N.R.P.S. (studbook), which also uses al kinds of stallions and in a number of countries in Europe there is the A.E.S. (studbook) that also looks only at ability and not at breed/roots. For many studbooks the most important thing is to be breeding the best horse and not the registries the ancestors of horses were registered with.
What is really important, is to have papers for the foal. For that, you have to verify if the stallion is recognized for the registry of your mare.
Breeding a HOL stallion to a SF mare is no problem as long as the stallion is allowed to breed inthe SF registry.
I have mares from HOL, but my registry is the SF. I bred them to Quality Touch OLD and Jaguar Mail SF and Alligator Fontaine SF and Iowa KWPN and I had SF papers for all the foals.
Now, one of my mares is HOL by ancestry but registered Rhineland. Normally I produce with her in the SF registry. But she’s in foal from a TB, not recognized by the SF.
I have two choices : asking the SF registry to make an exception and register the foal (highly improbable, but worth a try) or register the foal with the stud-book ‘Z’.
In America you may have wb “breeds.” But in europe they are registries. Warmbloods have Arab blood and TB blood and are also crossed with other registries. The trakehners are the closest to being a “breed” in Germany.
I have a Hessen whose grandsire was Dutch and whose greatgrandsire was a French Anglo-Arabian TB, that was the term, who was bought by the burgermeister of Oldenburg and was graded into the Oldenburger studbook. Both sides, the Dutch and the French/German side, had American TB studs in the lineage. Crossbred horses, bred for conformation and performance, not bred to be in one “breed” like the TB and Arabian breeds.
So yes, the registries have horses which have been approved by other registries. There are a lot of good european books on warmbloods. Many are in english as well as in german. Good reads to understand the concept of breeding for performance in europe.
In the US there aren’t even WB “breeds” - they are still the same registries as in Europe, either the European version, or the American version (ie GOV vs OldNA)
As such, a WB here isn’t a breed either, it’s registered as X, and then called X, even if neither parent was X.
Done all the time.
A stallion who is registered with, and therefore called Hanoverian, might only be approved for breeding with, say, GOV. A mare might be registered/called a DWB, but also only approved for breeding with GOV. The 2 are bred, and the resulting foal is registered with and therefore called an Oldenburg.
Very, very few WBs are entirely one registry or another. The “pure” Trakehners are probably the closest, as they are the closest to being a breed because of the longer-term closed studbook
No help on Johnson 
What would impact the foal paper-wise, as already mentioned, is if you are not able to register it. In other words, if you use a stallion (or mare) who is not approved for the cross.
I don’t think crossing registries is an issue, I would breed the best horse possible regardless.
It is commonly done. That is why so many stallions are approved in multiple registries.
If the stallion you like isn’t approved in your mare’s registry, you can present her for approval into the stallion’s registry.
We had a Johnson colt out of our Ferro x Donnerhall mare a few years ago. He was lovely in type, except back at the knee (one of Johnson’s traits) and he also had a very hot and stubborn temperament as a foal. He sold before he was weaned. I would try Johnson again, but not with this particular mare and would be sure the mare had very correct front legs and passed them onto her foals and also a very easy temperament.
It’s all about which registries the sire and dam are approved for. As has been noted in previous posts, it’s common for horses to be approved in multiple registries.
Here’s a fun example: I have a mare (TB dam) who is registered & approved Hanoverian. She has produced 4 registered HAN foals. She was bred to a stallion who is registered as, but not approved for breeding w/ HAN. He’s an approved Westpahlian sire, so the mare was inspected and approved Westphalian and their foal - the offspring of two HAN horses - is registered Westphalian. Interestingly, the closest of this foal’s relatives to be registered Westphalian was three generations back…
In Canada, Wb is a breed but it has done the research to show that there are a few common ancestors to the group that make it similar. There was a thread on here a while ago and it discussed how most Wb’s male tail go back to 4 horses and two of them are the most common. Eclipse and Herod are two. The mares were the more unique aspect to the registries as the stallions and their sons often were shared.
Wb’s are unique in that they use a selection process to choose a handful of stallions and use them. So the registries often borrowed the “best” from each other. I don’t think you can credit any one registry with out paying tribute to the others. Holsteiners used SF, AA and Tb, Hanoverian used Traks, Tb and AA.
And now they tend to accept the best performance stallions from other registries.
But as everyone points out, you need to follow rules if you want it registered with one registry or another.
If you want to learn, go to http://www.sporthorse-data.com/ and type in some of your favorite top horses and have a look at their pedigree to see the influences.
