It has been a real struggle trying to get my horse to gain back muscle and a top line. His butt is higher than his withers. Is that just a Quarter Horse thing? He’s build like a thoroughbred; long legs, skinny, narrow body. Ive done the long and low thing, but we have gotten no where. Any suggestions??? Taking all!!!
If he is built downhill (croup higher than withers), he is built downhill. While you can add muscle to a topline, you cannot alter the skeletal structure of the horse through training and conditioning. And, yes, it is very common for Quarter Horses and other stock breeds to be built this way.
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^ Correct.
Be careful that you are encouraging your horse to work from his hind end when you do your long and low work. On a horse that is built downhill, it’s quite easy to actually drive them further onto the forehand if you are not careful. If you are in any doubt, I might try things like hill work (start conservatively) and doing lots of transitions, with the aim of really getting his hind end strong and encouraging him to carry himself as well as he can.
Has he finished growing (hope so)? The wither is the last to come up.
just because a horse is built croup high does not mean he cannot learn to bend his hocks and carry himself in an uphill way, however long and low may simply mean running around on the fore hand
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I have a leggy narrow croup high QH - we’re learning dressage together right now. Long and low is our enemy for getting him to move uphill, he can get nice and round but he’s on the forehand by dressage standards. Getting him to work with his head up, on contact, without worrying about bending at the poll, has been our key to getting his hind end underneath him. That and A LOT of trot / canter / trot / canter transitions. The pretty bend at the poll, without going down, will come with time (or so I’m told).
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How does his neck come out of his withers and chest? Does he have a steep croup or straight hind end?
If he is downhill through the body but otherwise has decent conformation and a natural tendency to step underneath himself, then you have a good shot at training him out of your current problems. If he has any of the issues I listed above, then keeping him off his forehand will probably be an ongoing effort.
Riding him more “up” into the reins will help. So will lots of correct transitions. Ride deeply into your corners and work toward 10 m circles all while maintaining correct bend through his entire body. Practice pushing him more forward (think medium trot and canter) and then bringing him back to regular working gaits (just don’t push him off balance so that he dives into the ground).
A good dressage instructor can help you a lot and offer more individual help for you and your horse.
[QUOTE=UrbanHennery;8055892]
I have a leggy narrow croup high QH - we’re learning dressage together right now. Long and low is our enemy for getting him to move uphill, he can get nice and round but he’s on the forehand by dressage standards. Getting him to work with his head up, on contact, without worrying about bending at the poll, has been our key to getting his hind end underneath him. That and A LOT of trot / canter / trot / canter transitions. The pretty bend at the poll, without going down, will come with time (or so I’m told).[/QUOTE]
The pretty bend at the poll will come if and as, the hind end engages and the horse starts carrying himself. So carry on with your transitions, make sure your circles are correct, particularly your smaller circles, for they are the foundation of correct lateral work, and maintain a soft contact as you go. The poll bend will come with the softening that goes with engagement.
Downhill (which I think of as stifle higher then elbow) is an issue not just with stock breeds, but also many Tbreds, and SOME Warmbloods. So, long and low will not solve the issue - that is fine when teaching connection, and to help get the back swinging (in warm up), but at some point, you need to start bringing the front of the horse up. You’ll never make him an uphill horse, but with good gymnastic riding, you can create an uphill way of going - getting him to accept more weight on this hindquarters, thus freeing up his shoulders and lifting him in front. Lateral work can help here, as can many good quality transitions.
A friend of mine has been riding a very downhill Oldenburg, and the more he gets engaged behind, the more he lifts in front - he was trained through PSG, and has been just hanging out doing nothing, so part of it is building fitness.
When I read the title of this post, I was really imagining a pretty horrific buck - croup over withers!:eek:
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It will also be a problem to get your saddle balanced properly front to back. If your weight is constantly thrown on to his withers you will ALWAYS have trouble getting him to work back to front.
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[QUOTE=merrygoround;8056217]
The pretty bend at the poll will come if and as, the hind end engages and the horse starts carrying himself. So carry on with your transitions, make sure your circles are correct, particularly your smaller circles, for they are the foundation of correct lateral work, and maintain a soft contact as you go. The poll bend will come with the softening that goes with engagement.[/QUOTE]
Indeed. We’ve also been doing a lot of lateral work with the transitions as well as lengthening and shortening as TickleFight describes. He’s come a long way in just 3 months.
Of course it helps that I’m starting with a smart mostly finished reiner rather than a green horse. The idea of rounding and collection isn’t new to him, but shifting onto his hind end to do it is, as are the muscles used to do it.
My favorite transformation pictures are of a downhill quarter horse, in the first photo, was the day we bought him, with my young son ridinghim
http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m40/chisamba/horses/ashefirstday_zpsf6381e81.jpg
the later photo is of him a year later, student riding him so please do not critique her, but as you can see the horse change was quite dramatic
http://s100.photobucket.com/user/chisamba/media/horses/asheyearlater_zps3359eb26.jpg.html
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Chisamba, that is quite a transformation - doesn’t look like the same horse to me!
Out of curiosity, how old is he?
[QUOTE=SheckyG;8063147]
Chisamba, that is quite a transformation - doesn’t look like the same horse to me!
Out of curiosity, how old is he?[/QUOTE]
I promise, it is the same horse, he was ten when we bought him, and eleven in the second photo. Sadly, we lost him in the barn fire about three years ago, so I cannot tell you how far up the levels he would have gone, but the difference in his muscling was of great pride to us. :).
Chisamba, the first thing that struck me while looking at the two photos was NOT the top line, or even downhill/uphill. The first thing that I noticed was the development of the abs, which help stabilize balance and also engage to lift the back. Well done.
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This is an old thread but reviving because I have a question about my new horse - she just turned five (born July 2014) and she’s Hanoverian. The Dresch saddle fitter that came out today noted she’s a bit croup high but that she’ll likely grow a bit more in her withers. I hope so! She doesn’t move downhill and looking back at her sales picture, she doesn’t appear croup high there, so I think it’s possible she’ll grow a bit higher in the withers to even out.
Wondering how likely that is? I know WBs can keep growing a bit after 5 but it’s no guarantee. 
Well, even a downhill built QH can build great topline muscles. This can be seen on any well-trained QH.
So your WB is croup-high. Many are, esp. of jumper bloodlines. Ride the horse you have. Your balance and training will make a huge deal in influencing your horse’s balance. But don’t expect your horse to be uphill horse if she isn’t. Keep her happy in the work and always develop the “try”. DEVELOP the balance and later respect what she can and cannot do as you move up the levels.
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Ok noted - I’ll wait to see how she grows I suppose. Withers grow later I think so hoping it evens out. She feels fairly ok with balance for a young horse so far (video for reference) but will just keep her in good training and hope for the best - took the horse in her first show this weekend and even with me as an AA we managed 75% in Training 3. Despite her (current?) confirmation she really doesn’t feel downhill.
In any case, having a saddle made to fit her correctly sure can’t hurt.
There have been many discussions about uphill/downhill, on COTH and elsewhere. Why should we be concerned about the croup-wither line - or should it be the stifle-elbow line, or the knee-hock line, or???
For example,
https://www.behindthebitblog.com/2008/08/understanding-conformation-its-uphill.html
I have always found Dr. Deb Bennett’s work illuminating, and her article on collection doesn’t contain the words uphill or downhill http://www.equinestudies.org/true_collection_2008/true_collection_2008_pdf1.pdf
I think the answer is not simple, which is why many horses that are not classically uphill do just fine in dressage.
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Thank you! That is so helpful to read. I was staring at my young mare today trying to see how up or downhill she really is, and decided I don’t care about imperceptible apparent hilliness stuff because I purchased her for her movement and temperament anyway. 
