Cruel modern training methods- why?

[BritishEquestrian]

So I was thinking earlier having previously seen discussions regarding some of the modern day training methods about how they evolved and why people think they are acceptable? If one hasn’t already guessed I am referring to the more inhumane methods; I don’t personally know/have witnessed many but even the standard ones such as rapping, using electric wire round poles and metal poles…

I am not ‘trolling’ I am simply intrigued on the way the methods developed into people believing these methods are the way to go…

I could potentially write paragraphs but instead of droning on. In regards to training methods that are inhumane and cruel, why are they accepted in some cases and how do people even agree with their trainers and use them?

[AmmyByNature]

I promise you people were just as cruel in the “good old days.” Cruelty and short cuts are not a new phenomenon.

[CHT]

I don’t think methods have gotten more cruel, it is more that as we know better, many people have higher expectations of others.

I think the evolution comes in two forms:

1. The horse loving child one day has a horse that causes them to feel fear OR doesn’t allow them to achieve the success they think they deserve. They blame the horse and are ok using dominating techniques and convince themselves it is ok as if the horse did the right thing it wouldn’t be an issue.

2. For the trainers, I think it is either that is how they learned and the don’t know a better way, or that they feel trapped trying to maintain success with some perhaps less able horses or for clients with unrealistic expectations. They fear loosing clients to other trainers (as they need to pay their bills) and so will do what they feel they need to, to keep their clients.

With trainers I know, they were anti-drugging, and started to poach clients from a barn that was big into drugging. The problem was they couldn’t get some of the horses to come around to their program, and eventually did start drugging some of those horses (at shows) to continue to achieve success. I don’t think the clients even knew. It was just the pressure of being successful that lead them to do something that they formerly would not have done.

[alternate_universe]

Sometimes it’s the pressure of money, to be honest. Owners and riders demand results from their trainers without allowing for the appropriate amount of time to spent in training or without acknowledging that it’s out of their, or their horse’s ability. So, these trainers resort to gadgets and harsh methods to fake the results to get a paycheck.

[asterix]

Not unique to the modern era. Lack of a moral compass sadly evident throughout human history.

[red_mares]

I don’t think methods have gotten more cruel. In many ways I think they’ve gotten soft almost to the point of uselessness (think NH)

I do think that a lot of people, especially those with little actual animal experience, have a very distorted view of “cruel.”

I’ve met too many people who think basic discipline is cruel. They think fly masks are blindfolds & putting a horse out without a blanket is cruel. Too many people get their information from Disney, the overwrought ASPCA commercials, or online idiots.

ETA: Anyone who thinks better horses through chemistry is a modern invention is kidding themselves. It’s been going on forever, there difference is there is testing available now that wasn’t 100 years ago.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=asterix;7939341]
Not unique to the modern era. Lack of a moral compass sadly evident throughout human history.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, seriously… check out Baucher’s predecessors…

[wendy]

The lure of the quick fix. No one wants to spend time working on the basics so they try something that might give instant results.

[DancingQueen]

As mentioned, nothing new here. OP specifically mentioned poling. There are references to it and how to instructions in riding handbooks from the early ninteenhundreds.
Why people do it? Because it works! Up until not so long ago it wasn’t even an illegal training method. I remeber GM doing a clinic in Sweden in the early nineties building offsets and explaining why.

I think it’s the attitude towards theese training methods that have changed, so that we now view them as despicable rather then the norm.

It is my feeling though that as the sport is changing towards lighter rails etc. the horses are also bred to become much more careful as a response to that. The modern horses will be careful enough that the need for the stronger schooling methods will all but disappear.

[DancingQueen]

I don’t like poling, if you have to do it, it’s because you are riding a horse that is not careful. I am in the position where I can choose to only ride horses who wants to leave the rails up.

But, I had a conversation with an Italian trainer a few years ago who said that an amateur student probably needs to be on a horse that is not supercareful to learn, because she will make mistakes. A less careful horse will take a bad distance and keep going. This horse might become complacent and start having rails, specially when the rider puts in a good effort and finds all her jumps right, which is a bit unfortunate as good riding should produce clean trips and ribbons.

If that horse gets a “special schooling session” once a month to make him jump clear, he will keep this rider happy and have a job with her for much longer rather then falling down the ladder and getting sold for cheaper and cheaper each time. Long enough for her to learn to ride and be able to move on to the more careful one without the risk of wrecking it.

I can sort of see her point.

[findeight]

@BritishEquestrian;7939199

So I was thinking earlier having previously seen discussions regarding some of the modern day training methods about how they evolved and why people think they are acceptable? If one hasn’t already guessed I am referring to the more inhumane methods; I don’t personally know/have witnessed many but even the standard ones such as rapping, using electric wire round poles and metal poles…

Well, rapping and poling are not “modern day training methods” by any definition, been around for hundreds of years. Not my favorite but I can understand why some whose very living depends on leaving the rails up occasionally might feel they need to use them sparingly. Pretty well known overusing these can backfire and create far worse problems then they fix. Like stopping or not going near a fence with a human anywhere near it or even into the ring if they see anybody in it on foot (seen that a couple of times). Difficult to try to come up with a creative excuse to explain that when it’s obvious the horse is scared of jumping around somebody on foot. I wouldn’t even call rapping and poling “standard”, many never use them at all.

But where is wrapping electric wire around poles a “standard” method? I don’t doubt it has been done but it’s hardly “standard”.

Its a mistake to read of something or even see it and extrapolate it is the “standard” or even assume it is commonly used.

[arapaloosa_lady]

In the animal world in general, I’d say the opposite is happening, and I’m glad to see it!

Many, many studies have been done demonstrating the superiority of positive reinforcement training methods to punishment-based training methods. When’s the last time you’ve seen a good dog trainer jerking on a dog with a chain?

However, horse training hasn’t appreciably followed this trend yet because it’s so mired in tradition. I don’t claim to be a training expert, but I’m hoping people who are will be able to make that leap. The natural horsemanship people are trying, but for the most part, failing, to make an effective change.

[findeight]

The real, traditional NH theories are gaining wider acceptance and are probably older then the short cuts and quick fixes. They’ve always been around in good programs in all disciplines. Nothing new.

[Lady_Eboshi]

[QUOTE=red mares;7939344]
I don’t think methods have gotten more cruel. In many ways I think they’ve gotten soft almost to the point of uselessness (think NH)

I do think that a lot of people, especially those with little actual animal experience, have a very distorted view of “cruel.”

I’ve met too many people who think basic discipline is cruel. They think fly masks are blindfolds & putting a horse out without a blanket is cruel. Too many people get their information from Disney, the overwrought ASPCA commercials, or online idiots.

ETA: Anyone who thinks better horses through chemistry is a modern invention is kidding themselves. It’s been going on forever, there difference is there is testing available now that wasn’t 100 years ago.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%. The number of horses at risk of a life of REAL cruelty (or a short trip through the auction) due to their LACK OF MANNERS ONCE TAKEN FOR GRANTED is increasing EVERY day, and I attribute this to the horse never having been systematically trained to catch, lead, tie, stay out of the handler’s space and generally have boundaries. I believe the “NH” methods when performed by most ammies actually confuse the hell out of the horses, and often give them the idea they’re the dominant partner. Translate that into the saddle, and they can get away with anything they want. George Morris used to call this syndrome “Lady-Broke,” and rather than being sexist, what he really means is handling a horse so softly you don’t elicit the animal’s respect.

Too many owners would rather ride a strong horse with 75 psi. on a “kind” snaffle than enjoy an obedient, light ride on a “cruel” Pelham. Would you prefer a light rapping to make a sloppy jumper pay attention, or a rotational fall that kills both of you?

Many, many things are a matter of CONTEXT–and that’s what the ignorant lack.

[Silver_Silence]

[QUOTE=findeight;7939604]
The real, traditional NH theories are gaining wider acceptance and are probably older then the short cuts and quick fixes. They’ve always been around in good programs in all disciplines. Nothing new.[/QUOTE]

Thank you. Not talking ‘parelli’ here, or the games or whatever the hell. I used to look at it and think “hahaha… oh that natural horsemansh*t” … then I stopped and listened to what was being said by the real deal horsemen out there.