Cubbing is when young are dug out of den and thrown to the dogs to be torn to pieces"

[SmartAlex]

Perhaps in the US the population is not as concentrated and the foxes stay well fed without raiding the hen house. In all my years I don’t think a fox has ever taken a chicken. (weasles or coons yes) We do have fox in close proximity. I see evidence of them hunting field mice in the snow, and neighbors knew where there was a den full of kits this year.

We have very few eagles, coyotes or bear for predators (no wolves or cats) although the eagle and coyote population has increased. And the nearest hunt is over two hours away so I know no one is chasing them.

[McGurk]

I have chickens. No one needs to tell me about that damage that foxes cause, I am quite familiar. My response has been to add additional layers of security to what we call the Maxi-hen Security Prison. I prefer NOT to kill foxes and coons unless I absolutely have to to protect my livestock. Reinforcing the coop is a lot easier than catching a fox.

It is a cultural difference. Foxes are perceived differently in the US than in the UK. What happened in the UK is that the perception of country landowners and farmers was at such variance with the rest of the society; so society acted to bring them into line - that is, the ban.

Does anyone remember the anti-hunting video on YouTube where a protester charges in and picks up the hunted fox and runs away with it before the hounds can get it? That wouldn’t have happened in the US because the fox would have been allowed to go to ground and the hunt would have moved on and found another fox to chase.

In the US, the public’s and farmer’s/livestock owner’s perceptions are closer together, therefore, foxhunting is tolerated.

[Equibrit]

Brits are usually surprised at the way half the population (it seems) take up rifles and pursue deer in the USA. Deer flourish in numbers here, which requires that they be culled. Similar situation with the fox in the UK. You keep a healthy population that way.There is a lot more festering under the surface in the fight against hunting and it has very little to do with foxes.

[SonnysMom]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;8965782]
That may be true, but the vermin would, and are, still killing livestock and infesting cities.

Humans are the only fox predators in the UK.
In the USA there are several;
cougars
lynxes
bobcats
panthers
eagles
coyotes
gray wolves
bears
mountain lions
humans[/QUOTE]

I live in SE PA until recently we have had none of the above fox predators in my area. We are starting to see some coyotes and bald eagles. I am not hearing about decimated chickens, goats and sheep herds in my area.

[McGurk]

I think we’re grabbing the wrong end of the argument.

The attitude towards foxes as vermin or nuisance animals or predators is different in the US and the UK; hence, the different styles and attitudes towards hunting.

While it’s interesting to discuss why, it’s not really relevant to the issue; which is that someone is libeling a US based hunt; based on an inaccurate description of an activity that only ever happened in UK hunts (digging out foxes.)

[Equibrit]

I didn’t realize we had a discussion monitor !

Why don’t you scamper off and start a petition against ignorant people defaming Headwaters Hounds ?

[candyappy]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;8965801]
Perhaps in the US the population is not as concentrated and the foxes stay well fed without raiding the hen house. In all my years I don’t think a fox has ever taken a chicken. (weasles or coons yes) We do have fox in close proximity. I see evidence of them hunting field mice in the snow, and neighbors knew where there was a den full of kits this year.

We have very few eagles, coyotes or bear for predators (no wolves or cats) although the eagle and coyote population has increased. And the nearest hunt is over two hours away so I know no one is chasing them.[/QUOTE]

I lock my chickens up every night in the hen house because if I don’t the foxes will have a feast . I forgot once and lost 6 chickens to them. Depends on where you are I guess.

[otterhound]

Foxes are just as much of a problem in Australia - farmers fight a constant battle to keep their stock alive! Shooting foxes is a very popular thing, with farmers welcoming shooters. I have seen a tally of around 35 foxes shot in one night alone! And to ride through a paddock of ewes and lambs and see well over a dozen young lambs with just their tongues and guts eaten - by foxes - puts a whole new perspective on the critters.

[McGurk]

I didn’t realize we had a discussion monitor !

Why don’t you scamper off and start a petition against ignorant people defaming Headwaters Hounds ?

Sorry!

Carry on then with the discussion you’d like to have!

[Gestalt]

[QUOTE=McGurk;8966946]
Sorry!

Carry on then with the discussion you’d like to have![/QUOTE]

Oh yeah, now you’ve gone and done it! Don’t try to reason with anyone that feels it is their right to kill wildlife.

There are several ways farmers and ranchers can protect their livestock that doesn’t include exterminating other creatures, but why be bothered when it’s so much easier (and fun!) to just kill something.

[trubandloki]

@Gestalt

Oh yeah, now you’ve gone and done it! Don’t try to reason with anyone that feels it is their right to kill wildlife.

There are several ways farmers and ranchers can protect their livestock that doesn’t include exterminating other creatures, but why be bothered when it’s so much easier (and fun!) to just kill something.

Your post makes no sense to me.

I do not see where McGurk pointed out being pro or con wildlife killing.

I admit I am very curious on what techniques you would like people to use on wildlife instead of killing them.
Are we going to suggest that the wildlife not kill each other too?

[McGurk]

No, actually, in referring to my chickens I said I preferred reinforcing the coop to hunting and killing raccoons and foxes. I have a sneaking fondness for foxes when they’re not lurking around my chicken coop.

So my position can roughly be described as “Only kill wildlife when necessary and when other reasonable means have been exhausted” and I’m not a big fan of blood sport.

But I do appreciate trubandloki and Gestalt pointing out that the agenda of some posters is defending blood sport. I couldn’t figure out why there was so much pushback, so thanks for clearing that up for me.

[cheval_convert]

When I went to Hunters Rest to try foxhunting, it was cubbing season. Betsy’s description of the purpose of cubbing season was “to teach the young hounds to hunt and to teach the young fox to be elusive”. Digging them out of the den to be torn apart by the hounds was not part of the agenda.

[skydy]

While I am as fond of “wildlife” as the next person I find it inexcusable for people to put such hysterical nonsense forward as fact.

Did someone read an old foxhunting book and just assume that this was done in the U.S. without checking their facts? I have a decent sized collection of books on foxhunting. All but one (a signed! copy of Mackay-Smith) are from the U.K. and the majority are over one hundred years old.

Nowhere in the U.S. is this done. Do you think these people really believe that it IS done or are they knowingly libeling the hunt? One would hope they would actually do some research before freaking out and making fools of themselves because they read somewhere that this was done somewhere in the past. They just couldn’t be bothered to actually look into it?

As an aside, foxes in the area that I live in regularly kill people’s cats, and coyotes kill little dogs. You cannot let cats out at night in many areas of town unless you don’t mind possibly never seeing them again. Years ago, my brother’s little dog was killed by a coyote in broad daylight in a field by his house. They are indeed a danger to pets and livestock.

That’s beside the point however. No one is doing holding up fox cubs to be eaten by hounds and I don’t blame the hunt for being horrified at being accused. I hope there are members of the hunt who are (or have friends in) the legal profession and will pursue these people for damages an apology and a retraction.

[cbv]

[QUOTE=SonnysMom;8965945]
I live in SE PA until recently we have had none of the above fox predators in my area. We are starting to see some coyotes and bald eagles. I am not hearing about decimated chickens, goats and sheep herds in my area.[/QUOTE]

Don’T know how much a Fox cub weighs. But Bald Eagles primarily feed on fish an some migratory birds and road kill. Bald Eagles weigh on average 9 pounds. They cannot carry more than half their wt. So seems unlikely they kill a lot livestock. They are scavengers however, and will feast on carrion.

[Guilherme]

The the Age of Faux News it’s hardly surprising that stories like this are accepted at face value. It’s even less surprising given that we are an urban/suburban society and less than 10% of the population lives on farms.

But give somebody with an agenda and a computer some time and they’ll likely come up with proof positive that the Earth is flat, the center of the universe, and that gravity is a conspiracy of the Far Right, Far Left, the Illuminati, the Elders of Zion, the Masons, and Pee Wee Herman.

Sometimes it’s good to be skeptical!!!

G.

[Bluey]

—" --But give somebody with an agenda and a computer some time and they’ll likely come up with proof positive that the Earth is flat, the center of the universe, —"---

Just checking to see if that function is still working.
Won’t be able to edit if I need to, sorry:

[Willesdon]

Fox hunting is a paradoxical activity. In the UK the red fox is vermin - and it is still legal to kill foxes, just not to hunt them with a pack of dogs. So, the justification for fox hunting was ‘pest control’ but, at the same time, every effort was made to preserve and protect the fox population with a closed breeding season, an effective ban on shooting them (social death to do so!) and a landscape planted and maintained with coverts for them to live in… Many/most hunts would not kill many foxes over the season.

Do please respond to the petition that first prompted this thread. It is the same language and misinformation that fueled the 2004 Act banning hunting with dogs in the UK.

[Willesdon]

Fox hunting is a paradoxical activity. In the UK the red fox is vermin - and it is still legal to kill foxes, just not to hunt them with a pack of dogs. So, the justification for fox hunting was ‘pest control’ but, at the same time, every effort was made to preserve and protect the fox population with a closed breeding season, an effective ban on shooting them (social death to do so!) and a landscape planted and maintained with coverts for them to live in… Many/most hunts would not kill many foxes over the season.

Do please respond to the petition that first prompted this thread. It is the same language and misinformation that fueled the 2004 Act banning hunting with dogs in the UK.