In one sense that is true. But almost all the American breed registries STARTED OFF semi- open - usually with strict requirements on the sire line and some flexibility on the dam line - becoming closed when there was a big enough registered population (Morgan’s for instance, and the original TBs). But most of them became closed before the 20th century.
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Yes, absolutely, and how much things have changed since the days when an organization was essentially gathering individuals to create the breed they had in mind – however they came up with the specs for the breed. With inspections for registration, regardless of who were the sire and dam. All of that stuff.
How much attitudes have changed since those books were closed, long ago. Now there is intense focus on sire/dam registrations, lineages and color specifications, sometimes over performance capabilities. A huge aspect of American breed culture in many species, horses included.
Many Americans interested in ‘purebreds’, and in identifying the breed elements of a mixed-breed, are almost tunnel-vision on coloring and markings, over form. Less so among American riders who ‘ride English’, especially those who will sit on anything (almost). But this is intense in many breed-focused activities. Not just in horses, but in all species of purebred animals. Color & markings can be a strong American bias.
Whereas Europeans seem to not notice or care that their WB has a big white spot on its belly, or other parti-color markings, because it makes no difference to the horse or its performance. Personally I much prefer the European attitude that color & markings aren’t important. 
Americans can have a contentious relationship with registry specifications about color and markings, attributes that are of questionable value to actual performance. Attributes that are getting a fresh genetic look now that we know more about hidden genes in purebreds.
Controversially, there are certain pockets of American breeding of horses and pet animals that deliberately breed for traits to push the boundaries of the registry requirements, even breaking through them, to produce a ‘purebred’ individual that is an off-brand color or is otherwise not the usual standard. To get a scarce but desirable trait to sell at a premium to American buyers who want that trait.
One example is breeders with a focus on lines of Thoroughbreds with bold pinto / parti-color markings. Or even the aforementioned greater % TB to get the desirable WB label, in a market with more demand for WB’s than there is supply.
An example in dogs is currently producing huge numbers of pets for sale in random outlets. The growing ascendancy of often less-responsible ‘backyard breeders’, and outright mills, who want to create an ‘off-brand’ color (currently, merle is one) that is scarce but very desirable to uneducated buyers (which is most American puppy buyers). Sometimes because the written breed standard doesn’t allow it, but it’s hidden in the breed. Or, it’s being introduced by BYB’s, for bigger profits from the huge number of casual pet buyers who don’t show and don’t know or care about the breed standard. This is becoming increasingly widespread in the U.S., and is also happening on a smaller scale in certain horse breeds.
Not everyone in America is as interested in performance as they are in having a certain portrait on the end of their leash or lead line.
It’s kind of staggering to realize the true scope of this tendency in the U.S. Especially hard to fathom for those horse people who don’t care about color and barely know what color their horses are.
Interesting thread!
I grew up in France, riding Selle Français horses from the National studbook (I started riding with the military, think Cadre Noir instructors - they were tough!). At the time there were very few “pony clubs” so kids like me had to wait until they were 12 to get a true equestrian education, which was: horsemanship, basic horse health requirements etc, dressage (as a basis for ALL riding disciplines), jumping, riding over difficult terrain at all speed.
In the barns where I rode / took lessons in France over the years, we rode Selle Français, Trotteur Français, Anglo-Arabs, AQPS ( “Autre que pur sang” Other Than Thoroughbred), Arabs, Connemaras. Very few full-blooded Thoroughbreds, which were considered fragile, not polyvalent, and more difficult than other breeds.
The Selle Français I rode over the years really varied in size and temperament. Some were cold to the leg but wonderful when you could wake them up, some were as hot as could be, some were huge, some quite small. My sister’s mare was on the smaller size and not easy but very polyvalent and loved her people (Sis and me). Sis now has 2 “mutts”, one very old SF and one very cute and useless due to emphysema Icelandic.
As an aside, Sis and I “discovered” Icelandics im Schwarzwald when we were in our teens, and it prompted Sis to go do a weeklong trek in Iceland. Back in France she bought her first Icelandic. That little horse was a gem, and she’s been struggling ever since to find another one that could compare. But I digress.
In France a lot of people are drawn to “flashy” Iberic breeds or Friesians, it seems, nowadays.
When I was a kid, I really wanted an Anglo-Arab, as I’d ridden some wonderful ones. But my life took a different turn.
Coming in the US (Northeast) I figured I would try a 100% American horse, and as life would have it, that was a Morgan. To me, my little (14.3h) Morgan was the epitome of the perfect horse. Very personable, gentle and generous, just hot enough to keep me on my toes, and she could do everything: eventing, cutting escaped cattle, trail riding, swimming. I loved that mare. When I lost her, it really broke my heart. But I had good horse friends and thanks to them, got into the Ottb world. I had Ottb mares for 20 years.
IMO, yes, WBs are overpriced here in the US, and yes, most riders I know (dressage, jumpers, eventing) want a tall horse, 16h is considered on the smaller size here.
My preferred horse is 15h - 16h, barring a few exceptions, Morgans come to mind
One of the differences I saw when coming to the US was the fact that many horse owners / riders had no formal riding education. That was such a puzzle to me, coming from a “world” where you had to “earn” your privilege to own a horse through lessons etc. But that was decades ago. Times have changed there too, for sure.
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This size is becoming more popular among certain ‘English riders’ who see the spirit and ability of a smaller horse who can do everything the big horse can do, and that fits them well. A few breeders are including that size range. But it may still be a small market of preference.
Ironically, the traditionally short, stocky QH has been overtaken by the fever for a 16+hh individual. Especially among the younger riders. There are now many Appendix and even full-book QH’s above 16+hh.
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Not always the case. I am involved in Connemaras, and the American registry accepted “blue eyed creams” (double dilute buckskins) LONG before the Irish registry did.
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I was speaking generally, not about one-offs. But yes there are certainly individual examples of wisdom and good judgment as well.
Unfortunately I don’t find that to be the case ‘culturally’ in my experience of Americans and their animals, taken broadly.
Regarding WB, aren’t there multiple books, hannoverian, holsteiner, Swedish and Dutch warmbloods, Irish sport etc etc?
All individuals go for an inspection, which I guess is to become approved for breeding purposes? And they are generally bred for conformation and early performance not coloration? I’ve heard that we in the US pay inflated prices for European culls just to have the name value. Part of it’s the sheer cost of shipping and quarantine, that adds a chunk.
Do they ever get disqualified? I ask as in the US we had an argument going on regarding a specific QH sire, Impressive, who had a genetic condition that gave him significant musculature making him a winner in Halter (in hand). He also was athletic enough that he was bred to widely, unfortunately he also carried the recessive HYPP gene which became expressed in his offspring, which can be managed but can also be lethal. The AQHA went through a long period where market forces and popular opinion wanted the bloodline to remain in the gene pool, but at the same time valuable horses were dropping dead, sometimes while working endangering their riders, people’s breeding programs were at risk etc.
I’m not sure 20 to 15 years later what the final determination has been.
What do you mean by disqualified? At stallion licensing? Or later in life? Later not necessarily. But let’s say: Germany is small and if a stud is to produce ill offspring, the most likey won’t be used as much and as soon as the stud isn’t profitable they get gelded and sold… often to the US to be honest.
We have different studbooks in Germany (and some other countries), but they are all kinda open. Except Trakehner, which is closed and only allows horses with full trakehner pedigree or TB. TB in general is the only blood which will be allowed in any of our studbooks.
Hanoverians, Holsteins, Oldenburgs, Westfalen, Deutsches Sportpferd (DSP, german sports horses which is made of Hanoverians and Württembergs), Hessen, Bayern etc. are pretty open to their registrations. As long as the stud was approved by the studbook their offspring is allowed to be registered as that breed even if their parents aren’t as much of that breed as you would expect. But pedigrees in general are a bit of a mix.
My mare for example is registered as Hanoverian. Her dam was Hanoverian. Her sire is Holstein. But he was approved by the Hanoverian studbook, so his offpsring could be registered as Hanoverian (as long as their dams where registered as hanoverians before). This means, my mare is half hanoverian, half holstein (further back she’s Trakehner, SF and TB, too). If I were to bred her to let’s say Asagao xx (https://landgestuetcelle.de/de/zucht/hengstsuche/asagao-xx.html) a TB stud stationed at Landgestüt Celle, which is the main Hanoverian stud in Germany, I would be able to register her offspring of that pairing as Hanoverian, due to her being registered as one and the stud being accepted by the Hanoverian studbook.
Ah, I forgot to mention another thing. The dams sire of my mare Ansas only stood at stud for about 2 seasons before he got sold to the US and was never seen or heard of again. This happens to a lot of studs which don’t produce as well as expected. So this leads to him only having around 10 registered offspring in the whole country.
(https://www.horsetelex.de/horses/pedigree/185788/ansas)
The reasons for why such horses dissapear, especially quite often over the pond, where we never see them again, aren’t talked about openly. It might be just that nobody used the stud or that he wasn’t good to be around or he had problems with semen quality or the offspring died at birth. But that’s nothing to talk about openly. Cause it would damage the reputation of the breeder and the whole pedigree. The last ten years made this a lot better and thinks like WFFS are talked about more open.
My best friend owns a Holstein gelding, turning 25 now, clearly showing signs of DLSD. He was licensed stud, but theres not offspring to be found. He is a kinda nervous guy and hasn’t been much more than a pasture pet in the last 8 years she’s owning him. He was clearly damaged as a young horse, mentally and physically. But again, nobody talks about this. He got gelded and sold and that’s it.
With Impressive the recessive gene only showed up in crosses among the second and third generations, it was a ticking time bomb.
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Yeah, I heard and read about Impressive some years ago. But at least QH get 5 or 6 panel tests. We have problems to get the breeders to test their studs for WFFS, although it is known to be a cause of problems.
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Something similar to WFFS called HERDA exists in another line of QH, same problems with getting owners to cease breeding carriers at all.
There are significantly different horse keeping practices here as a result of available land. It was not unheard of here for a farmer with anywhere from 1 acre (0.4 hectares) to thousands in the Western states to allow horses to breed at will, with the ultimate destination a livestock auction. There are also people lacking experience in animal husbandry, elderly who remain on the farm and lose track, etc. with unexpected and poorly cared for foals. Contrast that to TB farms where breedings are closely monitored, though a poorly foal, a non starter etc might also go to auction.
Gradually this is changing as a newer generation takes over, but now we are getting people who view animals as an accessory as mentioned previously. I have a friend with two Merle corgis, a complete shock to me though they are fine as companion animals, my daughter actually paid money for a kinkalou cat from a pet store, claiming there was no tradition of shelters in her current country.
There are always culural differences, some subtle, some taken for granted and then the eye opening ones.
My full-book QH that was foaled in 1982 ended up just shy of 16 hands, his sire was taller, 16.1 if memory serves, a '78 model. It’s not a recent thing. You also had to go back a few generations to hit Three Bars in his pedigree. His dam was all ranch horse.
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We don’t have such things as QH beyond 16h. They stop at like 15.1/15.2 usually. But as mentioned before, I’m by no means a specialist on QHs, I could refer to some stud names I read quite often. Smart Doc Olena, Peppy San Badger, Hollywood Dun It, “Gunners”, some Tivios, Chex etc, thats what I know of QHs.
Reiners, Rope horses, cutters, etc are all still ‘QH sized’ - it’s the rail horses that are getting taller.
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I think we don’t have much more than reiners, ropers, cutters and some all arounds, pleasure and some halters. Hunters don’t exist cause we don’t have hunter jumping as a discipline at all.
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Cutters and Reiners are handier when smaller.
There’s also the whole Foundation Quarter Horse thing where one of the foundation sires was half Percheron. But I don’t know if that adds height at this point in time.
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They have Hunter Under Saddle classes in the Netherlands so they likely have it in Germany. A friend of mine shows in it and does quite well there.
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Yeah, Hunter Under Saddle is something I know of. But no jumping.
I don’t quite know, if this is, because we have different show jumping competitions and I know too less about US showjumping, to verify. But we do have two different types of competitions. Regular sj comps are called “Jumping Competition” and folks will call them “Penalties/Time” which is essentially what they are. The regular comp where you ride a course as fast as you can with no penalties.
The second kind is called (roughly translated) “Style Jumping Competition” where Style doesn’t mean how stylish your are, but how well you ride your horse, how balanced you are, how your horse moves (dynamically, smooth, in a frame and so on). You get a grade from zero to ten for this. But below 4 isn’t usual at all, so it varies between 4 to 10. Decimals are used, so 5.1 or 5.2 are possible. Nines are rare, 10 almost unheard of. It translates to the FEI percentages in dressage. So a 6.7 is roughly the same as 67%.
I myself don’t compete in the regular competitions. I do the graded ones only. Mainly because I’m happy to master a course and not quite able to do it fast without messing it up 
Same is with eventing. I only show in the graded ones 
I’m in fairly rural Alabama (southeast USA). land is relatively affordable and in many counties, especially the more rural (poor) areas horses are common and many are very poorly kept and cared for. You can stick as many as you want on a tiny lot with crappy fences and go on about your day.
