Cushings Horses and Topline Wasting - Mild Vent

[Montanas_Girl]

Is anyone else having a massive struggle maintaining the topline on their Cushings horse? Misery loves company…

My guy is a 20 year old Arab cross. He was diagnosed with Cushings Disease a little over 3 years ago. His ACTH levels and excessive thirst have been well controlled on Prascend, although he still grows a bit more coat and is slower to shed than is normal for him (although an outsider wouldn’t recognize it as a Cushings coat), and repeated skin infections remain an issue. Lately, though, his topline has been just melting off, and it is driving me batty.

Nutritionally, his needs are being covered well (I have an M.S. in equine nutrition ;)), and he is currently too fat (BCS 7ish), although I’m working diligently on getting some weight off of him. He is no longer consistently sound due to a mystery lameness that cropped up a year ago, so he isn’t being ridden more than the occasional walk/slow trot trail ride. He is turned out 24/7 most of the time, so he does self exercise to a certain extent. I expected some loss of muscle mass, but… :no:

I guess I’m looking more for commiseration than advice, but if anyone has any ideas for things I might be able to do to slow down this process, I’m more than happy to hear them. In the last six months, he’s suddenly looking like an “old” horse for the first time.

[ReSomething]

Well, I haven’t got much in the way of miracles for you. But Snort hasn’t gotten to look much worse now that he is eating like a pig all the time and he is 29 this year, another pastured only exerciser.

He had a swollen sheath this Spring and we took him for walks for about a month and they helped quite a bit, you might consider that, or perhaps water in one corner, hay in another to make him travel in his pasture. Right now I’m actually liking the horseflies a little, they make him run to his low branch and keep him going pretty well and my schedule lets me go out and swat them so he doesn’t suffer unduly.

They certainly can get “frail” looking quickly.

[Montanas_Girl]

Until two and a half weeks ago, he was living on 80 acres in the TN hills (aka mini mountains) in a herd of 15. There was quite a bit of movement involved in that lifestyle, obviously. Now that we have moved, he and my younger (8 years) mare are together on just under 5 flat acres. I’ve been home a lot due to the move, and I’ve been surprised by how much they move around every day. I’m not yet feeding hay, so they travel around the pasture grazing all day long. The mare seems to keep him more active than he would be of his own accord.

[newhorsemommy]

My gelding has the same problem. I’m trying an amino acid supplement on him but have a hard time getting him enough exercise to know if it’s helping. He lives out in a 1/4 acre dry lot (California) but is only ridden once or twice a week during the summer because it’s just too hot most days

I plan to keep him on it through the fall when I tend to ride more and hopefully will see a difference.

[pony_baloney]

My horse was getting Tri Amino for awhile but I switched to Spirulina this spring. It’s supposed to be high in amino acids and help build their immune system, which declines with Cushings. Also can help with allergies.

He is still ridden the same as before (4-5X/wk) and I think he looks even better from the Spirulina.

[WendellsGirl]

Interested in ( and currently googling) Spirulina…

How much are you feeding, baloney?

[pony_baloney]

WG, right now I think he’s getting a high dose of 1/4 cup twice a day for allergies. But I think for immune support it’s a bit lower. http://thenaturallyhealthyhorse.com/spirulina-blue-green-algae-horses/

It may be an acquired taste, so start out low and build up the dose. It smells and it’s messy (really fluffy powder that will blow away). He used to get Source, which I believe is a great supplement, but the blue green algae is similar in some ways and better in others.

[sdlbredfan]

FYI, ‘shifting lameness’ sometimes is sub-clinical laminitis. We are in the ‘seasonal rise’ period of higher ACTH levels now, so if you have not already scheduled the Vet out to find out if the Prascend dosage needs to be tweaked, now is the time to do that.

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;8270850]
FYI, ‘shifting lameness’ sometimes is sub-clinical laminitis. We are in the ‘seasonal rise’ period of higher ACTH levels now, so if you have not already scheduled the Vet out to find out if the Prascend dosage needs to be tweaked, now is the time to do that.[/QUOTE]

He is not laminitic. The lameness blocks to the LH suspensory (positive on LH fetlock flexions), but all x-rays and ultrasounds have been perfectly normal. So, we know where he is lame but not why, and I didn’t think an MRI or nuclear scintigraphy was a wise use of resources on a horse his age. I am ultra-paranoid about monitoring him for signs of metabolic complications, but so far (knock wood) he’s been okay. Chronic skin infections are his primary complication. The lameness cropped up over a year ago, and his ACTH levels tested within normal range in March.

It sounds like several others are in my boat with the topline wasting, and I feel all your pain!

[pony_baloney]

[QUOTE The lameness cropped up over a year ago, and his ACTH levels tested within normal range in March.

It sounds like several others are in my boat with the topline wasting, and I feel all your pain![/QUOTE]

In March the ACTH levels are back down to normal range. Now is the time to test, when they are elevated; a normal horse will show a slight elevation. A horse with Cushings will test much higher.

[Trails]

Spirulina is good if your horse has allergies. If no allergies then as baloney said Source is good. I’ve been using Source for years (22 yr. old QH mare). Good hoof growth, great coat, good immune system according to blood test. She looks great.

[Montanas_Girl]

[QUOTE=pony baloney;8275211]
In March the ACTH levels are back down to normal range. Now is the time to test, when they are elevated; a normal horse will show a slight elevation. A horse with Cushings will test much higher.[/QUOTE]

I’m well aware of the seasonal rise in ACTH levels. My point was that this horse’s levels have been tested since the lameness started. Our new vet (I just moved) was out today to give fall vaccines and was amazed that he was a Cushing’s horse. Other than his loss of topline muscle, no one would look at this horse and think he was suffering from PPID. His only remaining symptoms are the topline wasting and chronic skin infections. His coat is normal, his ACTH levels have tested normal consistently since treatment started, and his excessive thirst and urination have subsided. All indications are that his Prascend dosage is managing the condition well. And, since the lameness is specific to one hind leg and is 100% NOT in the hoof (I’m not sure where the “shifting” idea came from), calling him laminitic is a stretch at best. As I mentioned in my initial post, I have an M.S. in equine nutrition. I teach animal science at the university level; his lameness has been fully explored and is in no way related to the Cushing’s Disease, other than the yet unproven but logical idea that PPID horses may be more susceptible to ligament injuries.

Spirulina has been mentioned several times on this thread. I’m not sure by what mechanism it might help a Cushing’s horse, but I will definitely do more research into that as an option. The best option would be to put him back into light work, but his lameness is preventing that. He’s not so lame that he has slowed down AT ALL in the pasture, goofy boy, but I am not comfortable with any forced exercise for him at this point.

[findeight]

Maybe his age is catching up with him? Seems the older they get, the harder time their bodies have dealing with challenges. Do you have his papers with actual foaling date? If not he could be older.

My friend who runs a lay up/retiree place says around age 25, if they get that far, she notices age creeping up on their bodies and increased recovery times from minor problems. Most of them just start looking and acting old around then. Of course for some it’s earler and others later, hard to say when actual age is unknown in many of them.

[Montanas_Girl]

It’s funny you should say that, because the vet asked the same thing this spring when he did Montana’s teeth. He was convinced that Montana was 25, not 20. But I have his papers, have owned him for 15 years, and know his breeder. He’s definitely only 20. Apparently he’s just aging more quickly than average, especially for an Arab.

[Katy_Watts]

I’ve seen a couple PPID horses really gain back muscle and topline when put on 1/3 to 1/2 of their diet as alfalfa. I think some need a lot more protein than others due to the catabolic action of cortisol.
There have been no studies correlating ACTH levels to symptoms. Some horse with really high ACTH don’t act that sick, while others crash and burn with levels just above normal. Frequently control horses in studies have to be thrown out because they have high ACTH without symptoms. You don’t know this from reading only abstracts.
Other POMC derived hormones are also involved, but there aren’t a lot of commercially available tests, so ACTH is the only one we can watch. It is likely that individuals vary with which hormone is affected. A lot of researchers at conferences say to titrate pergolide dose based on individual symptoms rather than ACTH levels. Of course field vets are not going to share that, as they make their profit taking tests.

[SharonA]

I can no longer ride my 25-yo Arab bareback, due to the loss of topline muscle and the rise of the Great Shark Reef (her withers). She is in light work several times a week, lives out 24/7 on rolling hills, and actually under saddle is using herself beautifully! – but the topline is now migrated to her bellyline. She looks matronly, albeit a very pretty matron. She gets half a Prascend a day.

[pony_baloney]

The spirulina is supposed to help strengthen their immune system. My horse was never sick a day in his life, but this year a new horse to our barn brought a mild virus with him, and my horse caught it. He’s also more prone to White Line Disease and itchy skin stuff.

Since switching from Tri Amino to spirulina, his topline still looks good. He also gets a soaked hay pellet snack; it was alfalfa pellets, but recently have been giving timothy pellets because the BO had two bags of it. But, my horse is still ridden 4-5 times a week, where yours is not. I’m sure if mine wasn’t working, his body would change as well.

Maybe some simple stretches and belly lifts will help? Leading over some poles and walking up and down hills if he’s able?

[CHT]

I recently learned that cushings can cause hind end suspensory issues, which I imagine would lead to a wasting topline.

[HappyTalk]

My Cushings horse’s musculature started wasting away about three years ago. He is on Prascend. My vet ran bloodwork and all was normal. Insulin and ACTH were also tested.He is out 24/7 on pasture and dry lot with ration balancer and hay. He suggested that it might be end motor neuron disease due to lack of vitamin E. Added E to his diet and it made a dramatic difference. He is now 27 and his top line looks very close to where it was when he was younger. He also has more energy. I use Elevate. This is the only copy of the article that he gave me that I could find quickly.

https://books.google.com/books?id=H3DkAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1003&lpg=PA1003&dq=equine+end+motor+neuron+disease&source=bl&ots=mQaKql5GiT&sig=n-HIjXzQHI4ZL-PH1NBhl5nz58c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBmoVChMInt-40Kq_xwIVhioeCh18wQPK#v=onepage&q=equine%20end%20motor%20neuron%20disease&f=false

[pony_baloney]

[QUOTE=HappyTalk;8284507]
My Cushings horse’s musculature started wasting away about three years ago. He is on Prascend. My vet ran bloodwork and all was normal. Insulin and ACTH were also tested.He is out 24/7 on pasture and dry lot with ration balancer and hay. He suggested that it might be end motor neuron disease due to lack of vitamin E. Added E to his diet and it made a dramatic difference. He is now 27 and his top line looks very close to where it was when he was younger. He also has more energy. I use Elevate. This is the only copy of the article that he gave me that I could find quickly.

https://books.google.com/books?id=H3DkAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1003&lpg=PA1003&dq=equine+end+motor+neuron+disease&source=bl&ots=mQaKql5GiT&sig=n-HIjXzQHI4ZL-PH1NBhl5nz58c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEsQ6AEwBmoVChMInt-40Kq_xwIVhioeCh18wQPK#v=onepage&q=equine%20end%20motor%20neuron%20disease&f=false[/QUOTE]

My horse was tested last year and was at the very low end of the range for Vitamin E. He responded very well to it too; I give him the natural capsules for humans.