Cushings in a hard keeper?

[StarPattern]

I have a 24 year old mare who is, to put it mildly, a hard keeper. If the wind blows in the wrong direction, she loses weight. She lives outside 24/7, and was on a round bale all winter. She maintained her weight, but is always a pretty lean girl. She recently dropped a bunch of weight and while she seems to be shedding out on the same schedule as the other horses (I live in Alberta, our horses keep their winter coat until May-June, just in case)… she’s just not in the same condition as them. She’s got a potbelly on her and very little muscle tone. She’s ribby, despite having free choice hay, pasture and I’m feeding extra - 1lb of soaked beet pulp with 2 scoops of Ultimate Finish 100, 1lb rolled oats, and 3lbs senior feed. She gets this twice a day, plus about 5lbs of soaked cubes to nibble on afterward, to carry her through to the next feeding in addition to her hay and pasture. I have weighed her feed with a digital scale, so the weights are accurate. She lives with three other mares in her field, who are about the same age (my other one is 26) and they are all in great condition… but she’s not. She’s not being worked hard in any stretch of the imagination - I haven’t even thrown a saddle on her this year yet because of her body condition. Even though I know I’m doing everything I can to pump food into her, I’m embarrassed that I can’t keep the weight on her.

Her teeth were checked and floated in September 2018. According to her vet, she has great teeth for her age. She was just dewormed today. It’s not a matter of her getting bullied off food… she eats, but has always been a bit antisocial, so doesn’t seem to like eating with the other mares. The barn owner has started forking her hay as well, and she eats that quite happily. She cleans up her meals every time. She’s been scoped for ulcers in the past and treated a few times “just in case” because while she didn’t actually have ulcers… the vet thought it would be beneficial to treat anyway as a preventative thing. At her vaccination appointment the other day, her vet said she didn’t seem to exhibit any signs of hind gut ulcers, but would be happy to write a prescription for another round of treatment just in case.

So I started googling and I found a couple articles with photos of Cushings horses and my mare looks similar, minus the long, slow-shedding hair. My experience with Cushing horses is that they’re usually chubby with the potbellies. I’ve never come across a horse that is so difficult to put weight on. Is there such a thing as a hard keeper Cushings horse?

Edited to add: She is not being bullied or anything of that matter. In fact, she’s kind of a floater - even the boss mare in her field leaves her alone. They glare at each other, but that’s the extent. My other mare is actually the lowest on the totem pole and she’s a little overweight somehow - she is the epitome of making the best of any situation. haha. My hard keeper mare chooses not to eat with the other horses, rather than being run off. Once the fencing gets fixed in the other field, she’s going to go into that one and have free choice hay all to herself to see if that helps.

[firefoot]

I just had my vet pull blood for Cushing’s the other day. The symptoms I see on my horse aren’t the typical ones except a hint of irregular shedding pattern. But the vet said that a large minority of horses don’t show the typical symptoms. For example, my horse is somewhat of a hard keeper as well, certainly has no fat deposits, but he does have perpetual skin funk, is slow to heal, is quick to stock up even out in the field, and pees/drinks a lot. He is also holding on to his guard hairs this spring, which was icing on the cake for me to get him tested.

The test is not very expensive and your horse sounds like there’s something systemic happening. I’m kind of surprised that your vet hasn’t mentioned it in light of all you’ve tried for her – the muscle wasting and body type and age are pretty classic despite the lack of fat deposits, etc. My vet said there’s two tests, one baseline blood test that catches about 75% of positive cases and then another test that is more accurate but also more expensive (in my case, $85 vs. $185-200). I opted for the first one, but there’s a chance that horses early in the disease won’t test positive, which could be my case. But it sounds like your girl might be further along, so she might test with the cheaper one.

[S1969]

Weight loss/lack of condition is often the first sign of Cushings. I’d definitely test. If positive - you have treatment options, if not, you have at least ruled it out.

[JB]

I would absolutely test, as those symptoms are very descriptive of Cushing’s. There’s still time to do the better TRH Stim test, but once you hit May, you need to do the ACTH test.

[4horses]

Getting her into a different field should help. If you aren’t there all the time, it’s impossible to determine how much food she is actually eating. Does she walk off half way through her hay?

My old mare does better fed separate. She seems to avoid other horses as well. An old horse often does not want conflict, especially if they can’t move as fast due to arthritis.

[StarPattern]

@4horses

Getting her into a different field should help. If you aren’t there all the time, it’s impossible to determine how much food she is actually eating. Does she walk off half way through her hay?

My old mare does better fed separate. She seems to avoid other horses as well. An old horse often does not want conflict, especially if they can’t move as fast due to arthritis.

I’ve stayed to watch her eat because I’m curious and what she does is kind of weird… she’ll just not eat if the other horses are there. She’ll continue grazing until they leave and then she’ll eat. The barn owner gives her a pile to herself and she won’t move off of it if another horse comes up to it - she’ll lay her ears back and glare, but she doesn’t get chased away. She just would rather not eat in the group. The round bale itself is large and for only four horses, it’s pretty easy for them to spread out around it. She just won’t. She’s always been like this, really antisocial. She’s actually the only horse that I think would be happy without a friend… I rarely see her near another horse if she can help it. She does live with a bully of a mare, but the bully doesn’t actually bother her… it’s the strangest thing.

When she’s eating her other feed, she’ll stand and eat for the majority. With the last few bites, she’ll take a mouthful and wander off, chewing, before coming back for another bite.

[jherold]

I’ve know 3 that actually went from being easy keepers to hard keepers once the developed Cushings.

[RMJacobs]

@jherold

I’ve know 3 that actually went from being easy keepers to hard keepers once the developed Cushings.

That was my experience with my pony. He was always very fluffy and you could store marbles along his spine, until he developed Cushing’s. Then it became very difficult to get weight on him. He did a little better when he first went on pergolide, but then dropped weight again. I’d just had the vet out to re-evaluate when he died. He was also quite old, so there could have been other things going on concurrently.

Rebecca

[StarPattern]

I have the vet coming out on May 6 to pull blood. Until then, my mare has gone into her own pen, where she’ll get hay 24/7 plus her breakfast and dinner of senior feed and oats. To make it easier on my barn owner, I’ll give her the soaked feed at night so I can make sure she eats all her supplements. I’ll also leave her the soaked cubes with her PM feeding. In addition, she’ll get lunged every evening to build up her fitness a bit before I start riding her.

We’re hoping two weeks of this will start to put some weight on her. If not, we’ll be able to bring that up to the vet as well and test everything. If she starts putting weight on with the extra calories, we’ll still pull blood for Cushings, but know that she just needs a different feeding style than group. Like my BO said, “she just doesn’t care that much about food”. She’s not food motivated at all and if she doesn’t want to eat right then, she won’t… but the other horses in her field will happily eat whatever she doesn’t get to before she gets to it. She’s not bullied… she just would rather eat on her own schedule. So by putting her in a pen by herself, she can choose when she wants to eat without having another horse eat it before she gets to it. The eventual plan is to put her in a turnout with another mare just like her, so they can keep each other company… but at a distance. LOL.

[pony_baloney]

Mine went from a pregnant-looking air fern gelding to wasting away. Prascend at the right dose will most often help with the weight issue. Better to start treating now than waiting until autumn, when the ACTH rises and you’re at risk of laminitis and being underweight in cooler weather.

[StarPattern]

Quick little update: My mare has been in a private pen for a few days now, with food in front of her all day. She gets her breakfast and dinner every day (which she cleans up quickly), plus free choice hay. She gets a bucket of soaked cubes every morning that she works on until around dinner time and then another bucket of soaked cubes that carry her overnight. She nibbles at both the cubes and hay, depending on what side of the pen she’s on (weird).

I’ve started noticing her hind quarters filling in a little bit and her coat feels softer than it did a few days ago. She’s got more energy too - the other day, she spooked at a rock and was very suspicious of a goose wandering through a paddock. So that’s very positive to me. Using a horse weight calculator (heart girth x heart girth x length divided by 330), she’s estimated at around 1100lbs, but I’m not actually sure how accurate that is. She’s only about 15.3/16hh tall and fairly lean with a huge rib cage.

[S1969]

A few days of a diet change really isn’t long enough to see any changes in coat or muscle. It would take a few weeks to see weight gain and still longer to see changes in coat.

I’d probably still pull blood for Cushings if the vet is coming out.

[JB]

A horse can “fill out” a bit with increased hydration, so that may be what that’s from. No, her coat can’t change that fast unless she’s dropped a lot of her tired rougher Winter hair and you’re feeling more of the fresh new Summer coat. But that’s great that she’s getting to eat more food. Definitely make sure you still get her tested for Cushing’s

[StarPattern]

@JB

A horse can “fill out” a bit with increased hydration, so that may be what that’s from. No, her coat can’t change that fast unless she’s dropped a lot of her tired rougher Winter hair and you’re feeling more of the fresh new Summer coat. But that’s great that she’s getting to eat more food. Definitely make sure you still get her tested for Cushing’s

That’s basically what it is… she’s getting more water from her soaked feed, so she’s filling out that way. I just notice the littlest things as signs of progress.

[Garnet_Z]

My horse has Cushing’s. He actually did not display the coat problems associated with it when he was diagnosed, but he did have little muscling on his back and a bit of a pot belly. Cushing’s is quite common in older horses so it wouldn’t hurt to do the test.

For some horses, it’s easy to treat… My horse gets a Prascend pill daily and it keeps his hormone levels in a normal range (he gets an annual blood test). Cushing’s horses can be prone to insulin resistance and laminitis, so my horse gets hay, and pellets that are very low in non-structural carbohydrates (‘sugar’).

Edit: I suspect my horse had Cushing’s when I got him. He was skinny, but I figured he just needed extra food. He has no problems keeping on weight now. A few horses do lose their appetite on Prascend, but some don’t.

[DoodlesMom]

@jherold

I’ve know 3 that actually went from being easy keepers to hard keepers once the developed Cushings.

Yep, this is what happened to my guy. He was always… robust. Very easy keeper, but always a very picky eater, which never really was a problem. As he got older, he looked fine for a while, but suddenly started dropping weight a few years ago (in addition to not shedding, getting constant abscesses, and having difficulties combating rain rot and thrush). Turns out he has Cushings and is IR. He’s still a VERY hard keeper, and is ribby, but the vet is happy with how he looks. I had never heard of a horse dropping weight when they got Cushings, but it apparently does happen!

[StarPattern]

And another update. Vet was out on ![](ay 6 and pulled blood. She did the ACTH test and while I don’t know what everything meant when she was giving me results, the take-away was that my mare did not have Cushings. She recommended to keep giving her extra feed and if she didn’t start looking better in the next 4-6 weeks, to re-test just in case.

So we kept giving her extra feed - 5lbs soaked cubes plus 1lbs of rolled oats, 3lbs of senior feed and 1lb of COB twice daily plus hay all day. The COB is there to convince her to eat everything else - she has a bit of a sweet tooth. She works through that feed over the course of the day until dinner time, when she gets the same amount that carries her through the night. I’ve also increased her exercise to help build up some muscle and fitness. I had the Chiro out the other day for an adjustment since her pelvis tends to fall out of place, which I’m told can affect the sacrum and the horse’s ability to move correctly to help build muscle in the hindquarters.

This is where we’re at right now. She’s looking pretty good for a 24 year old Standardbred mare who is naturally on the thinner, racier side of the body scale. This picture was taken fresh out of the field yesterday, no brushing or anything. So I’m feeling pretty good right now about her condition. She’ll never be chubby, but her ribs are getting some good coverage.

[IMG]https://scontent.fyxd2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/60650169_10156105295871316_3476251992857247744_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fyxd2-1.fna&oh=35c7239c762491143d35fc607d301173&oe=5D52C7A5)

[JB]

Good news :yes: Her weight looks totally fine, just lack of muscle at this point

If you want, re-do the ACTH test in August or Sept. The seasonal rise will be hitting, and the Cushing’s horse typically has a higher rise than the normal horse, so is often a better indicator of earlier issues.

[StarPattern]

@JB

Good news :yes: Her weight looks totally fine, just lack of muscle at this point

If you want, re-do the ACTH test in August or Sept. The seasonal rise will be hitting, and the Cushing’s horse typically has a higher rise than the normal horse, so is often a better indicator of earlier issues.

Yes, I think I’ll redo the test just before snow flies here in Alberta (which could be as early as August if Mother Nature continues to act like a bipolar cow). I’m very happy with her weight gain so far and feel more confident about throwing a saddle on her. History tells me the quickest and most fuss free way to put muscle on this particular horse (since she hates lunging) is to take her on a trail ride and let her pick the pace and distance for the first few rides. She builds fitness and confidence and is smart enough not to overdo herself, which I credit to being an older, very intelligent broodmare. Haha. She knows how to look out for herself.

[DinkyDonk]

Try adding Tri-Amino or Nutramino (amino acid supplements) to counteract the catabolic muscle wasting that is common with Cushing’s/PPID. Tri-Amino helped my gelding a lot.