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Cushings/laminitis advice

Wow…I wish I had known all this diet info when my mare was diagnosed. It seems to me that a lot of people go into this blind. But it’s such an individual disease that not every treatment works for every horse. So you can make yourself crazy over every little detail of your horse’s lifestyle, and it still might not work. Not that it isn’t worth trying, but I wonder if this isn’t the reason why most vets take a minimalist approach to Cushing’s treatment. Or maybe it’s because we just don’t know enough about it yet. All I know is that I wish all this information had been available to me 4 years ago.

Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

CBV…I don’t think anyone will mind if you “steal” the thread…all questions and information on this topic are generally interesting to those who read it.

Yes, all the signs that you are seeing are all symptoms of metabolic disorders…most likely thyroid, but this could be secondary to insulin resistance or other problems. SBT offered some good advice on testing.

My information idicates that you are providing approx. 7g/day Mg. However, you may want to increase that if you are not seeing any softening or reduction of the crest after 3-4 weeks. In the Northeast in particular, it has been my experience that we need to add as much as 12-15 g/day to compensate for the affects fo acid rain.

While I would not be too concerned about turnout or the feed that you are using at this point, it may be too much at some point down the road. Just keep monitoring daily for changes in that crest…if it gets exceptionally hard…cut all feed and grass asap. Right now, I agree, exercise is just as important as a low carb diet, so I would recommend that you don’t stall or dry lot this horse…but I am not there to monitor it and know if it is going to founder either. My recommendations might be to either get a muzzle or provide limited turnout on grass…especially in the spring and fall. Check out www.safergrass.org for more info on grazing.

I would also suggest that if you do not get the expected results from the Mg supplementation within a couple of weeks, that you first remove the commercial feed and monitor for changes for 3-4 weeks. If you don’t see any, then start limiting grazing (this will most likely be done for you with the coming weather).

If you find that you need to remove the feed, then if you feel that you need to replace it with something to get supplements down, then I would recommend that you replace it with a very small amount of soaked beet pulp.

I personally am opposed to using pergolide to lower insulin levels. While it is sometimes successful, I feel that it is a heavy duty drug that can cause as many unbenefical side effects as it does good. Therefore, I prefer to first treat IR by lowing carbs as much as possible and mineral balancing. If this doesn’t work, or the horse is unstable with this treatment…check for insulin/glucose at least once/season as it may fluctuate with seasonal metabolic changes…then I add 5mg of chromium and retest in 4 weeks. From my experience, this is not always something that can be rushed…full stabilization may take up to 2-3 years to accomplish. However, if the horse is not showing any signs of improvement, then I would look into meds.

If this horse is suspected of secondary thyroid disorder, then I would highly recommend that you also add 1-1.5 oz/day of kelp or a kelp product like Source. This is generally benefical in supporting thyroid function. This should also help support the immune system. Additionally, flax seed/meal provided at 2-4 oz/day will support immune function and should take care of those "strange’ little problems that you mentioned. BTW, not to be the bearer of bad news, but this was similar to the things that happened to my 25 year old QH the year before he was diagnosed with Cushings.

Hope I answered your questions…

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

slb,
Do you have a good source for Pergolide? – I’ve been ordering 60 ml of 1mg/ml solution for $90 + $15 shipping ($1.66/dose) –

Back to the prices, I got pergolide suspension for $105 a bottle, it lasted about 2 or 2 1/2 months; ask your vet. If your vet can’t find it, email me coreene@yahoo.com and I’ll get you the contact info.

As for side effects, the only thing I noticed with Willem was that for the first four or five weeks he was completely uncontrollable, acted like Thunderbolt The Wild Stallion and kept trying to put me in the dirt. A few friends noticed the same with their guys; fortunately that subsided.

I’ve done a search, but many of the old links have expired so if you all could help out again it would be appreciated - I have no experience with Cushings.

My little sister’s old pony who is in his late twenties is retiring to my farm. He has Cushings and is a chronic laminitic. He’s pretty crippled, but still bright and carrying good body condition. He’s currently on Pergolide with Bute and/or Banamine as needed which of course I’ll continue. He’s currently barefoot so I think we can help him out there.

What else can I do for him though? My vets said that’s it, but my farrier is checking into a special diet that another customer swears by for her Cushings pony - something developed by some vets in CA I think.

This is a very dear old pony who I would like to keep as comfortable and happy as possible for as long as we can so any advice or information you could share would be greatly appreciated.

www.meandercreekstable.com

Hi! I have a 5-page article from Horse Journal scanned into my computer that gave in-depth pros & cons of using Hormonise to treat Cushings. Very interesting & positive reading.

If you’re interested, e-mail me & I’ll be more than happy to send it to you.

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it’s a “fixer-upper”.

Pergolide and hormonise are what I use on my 28 year old cushings pony. She was in real bad shape when she came to me and I wasn’t sure she was going to make it. We had access to everything including the glue on shoes that were redone every three weeksand all the different medicines. But I found the pergolide with the hormonise balanced her out and now her dosage of pergolide has been decreased alot. One major item that worked and I do swear by it is go to home depot and get the cushion play mats that interlock. Put them in the stall with shavings ( you do not need to over shavings the stall). The mats absorb the weight of the animal , similar to having advance cushings pad on. The pony was able then to be barefoot. It made all the difference in the world and it only costs 15.00 for a pack of 6. Please try it , it will make the pony extremely comfortable in the stall.

Ok I have a couple of questions based on most recent posts from slb and sbt…

My mare is exhibiting some of the signs of cushings and is getting tested tomorrow. She had raised glucose levels which is also one of the reasons (besides the long coat, slightly crusty neck, runny eyes, patchy sweating, etc…)my vet is recommending tests. I didn’t get into a lot of treatment details yet with the vet because we have not diagnosed her yet, but they did mention that they could give me cubes (similar to alfalfa cubes) - is this the pergolide? Or is pergolide liquid?

Also, can an IR horse show the signs of cushings that I am seeing or are there different signs? It seems like the Thyro, Cushings and IR cases are similar so I’m assuming the outward signs are similar?

Will an IR horse have higher glucose levels?

What do you mean by mineral balancing? Also, if we were to start treatments with pergolide, would I still have to change her diet? Currently, she’s been getting 2 lbs of pellets and 2 lbs of sweet feed (total per day) and hay. The pasture doesn’t have a ton of grass in it which I’m assuming is a good thing for her.

I’m just really starting to learn about this and I’m sure there is a lot more to figure out. Hopefully by the end of the week, I’ll have the test results in.

Thanks for all the info!

I don’t know if someone already mentioned this, but do have the insulin and glucose tests done at the same time, one is worthless without the other. I learned that the hard way. Sometimes you just have to tell your vet, ‘just humor me, ok’.

Addition to previous

Per Dr. Kellon many IR and Cushings horses can have a prob with Glucosamine.

[This message was edited by accidental buckaroo on Dec. 05, 2003 at 05:41 PM.]

In a word Cushings sux. I went through it with my pony, it’s unpredictable. You want a low protien low sugar feed, check the label. Feed small frequent meals on a regular schedule. I used to “hide” my pony’s meals in a bunch of lil “bite size” place settings so she ate it slowly and had fun finding her hidden treasures, it really helped mentally and physically. Give antacids with the bute. A world renound farrier specializing in founder said my pony was fine barefoot as long as she was trimmed correctly, so don’t worry about the shoes if he is ok with out them, if he’s small it’s too hard to fit the heart bar correctly anyway. Watch out for thrush, Cushings affects the immune system so it can get REAL deep REAL fast so keep him on some sort of preventive program. I would try to give him an nice cozy deeply bedded “in and out” stall, you want him to move as much as possible and deep bedding will be good because he’ll pee more than normal and it will be better for him if he lies down less pressure = better circulation. Get the farrier to make you some frog supports that you can vet wrap/duct tape on at the first signs of a “crisis” to help prevent rotation. I found that what, when, how she ate made the most difference. Hilton Herbs makes an herbal formula for Cushings, seems to make sense because it is technically a hormonal disorder, tumor causes the Pituitary to go bazzzerk, but it wasn’t out when my pony had Cushings so I don’t know how it compares to Pergolide. Get a feel of what is “normal” for heat/pulses in his feet so you will be able to detect any changes early. Drinking/peeing more than average is a symptom of Cushings, but I noticed that my pony would drink even more than her “normal” just before a crisis. I don’t know if he has had a “crisis” yet, but it looks like colic and founder at the same time. On the upside my pony was so happy and healthy for almost 7yrs after first showing a “cushings coat” and foundering once that she taught walk trot canter cross rail lessons and even showed until just a few months before she suddenly started having crisises that were just too frequent and too damaging. Tell him he is going to a “new job” not retiring, let him do all the work he is comfortable doing and groom him til your arms hurt.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by breezymeadow:
Hi! I have a 5-page article from Horse Journal scanned into my computer that gave in-depth pros & cons of using Hormonise to treat Cushings. Very interesting & positive reading.

If you’re interested, e-mail me & I’ll be more than happy to send it to you.

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it’s a “fixer-upper”.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hormonise is now called “Evitex” for some reason. It is put out by Emerald Valley Botanicals still, and is available through www.dropinthebucket.com

“Known to block the pituatary gland’s release of prolactin, the hormone believed to be a main culprit in Cushings”. Do not miss any doses it says…1 gallon $140. The catalog has a good article about cushings as well. Nothing else to add, just wanted to let you know the name has changed on the product.

Elippses Users Clique…Co-Founder Occularly Challenged Equine Support Group, "I hate stall rest"and now the “Better riding through Chemistry Clique”

“What the fuh?” Robby Johnson

Yes, well I think we all did what we could at the time we learned our friends developed Cushing’s… I knew so little and didn’t get much support from the vet as far as management of the disease… All I can say is, “Thank God for the Internet!”…

When I finally went online the first thing I did is seek out all the equine sites and was thrilled to discover the Cushing’s site… Although I no longer have a Cushing’s equine I am intrigued by this disease and try to learn all that I can as I still have a horse and there are many people with horses out there who are ignorant of the disease (like the person who boards with me, obviously)… If I can help spare one old horse from suffering it is worth all the time I put into studying this–I just love old horses… Learned to ride on old horses and I feel they deserve as comfortable a life as we can provide them before they meet their maker…

I still suffer pangs of guilt for not having done a better job in my pony’s case, but over the years I have learned so much; should I be faced with this disease again I know I could do a much better job… The hardest thing is forgiving one’s self, but one can’t correct a problem unless one has more information than what we had to go on at the time… I relied on my vets to give me the scoop, but they said nothing about staying away from sugar or grass, or anything about balancing the minerals in the diet…

My feeling is that Cushing’s was often misdiagnosed in the past… In the beginning the vets told me that my pony’s thyroid was out of whack, but as time went on it was evident that something else was at work… It wasn’t until about six years down the road that his insulin was out of whack then that they tested for Cushing’s and it came back positive…
So, I think vets are just testing for it more nowadays than they have in the past…

“Everything looks good until you start to examine it!!!”, uttered by me on more than one occasion

Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies, especially SBT and slb. I will plan to have tests done soon. She needs to go in for a float and I will have get them pull blood (I assume that is how they test) then.

Of course, all the good information you are sharing is creating more questions If you have a bit more time I will ask a few (and I will go to the Cushing’s site you mentioned).

How exactly are thyroid deficiency, insulin resistence and Cushing’s related? Are they simply a progression? Will she end up on the meds at some point no matter what, or can we slow the progression with diet?

slb, how do you manage your older quarter horse with Cushings (if he is still with you?).

As with so many owners of older horses, I want this mare to enjoy her retirement (which she is), but want quality of life to be the priority. She had a difficult start, but has had a very good life since she was rescued at 2 years by a kind friend and caring horsewoman, then came to me when she was 6.

Oh one more thing…do the meds help the symptoms go away or will she merely maintain where she’s at now if all goes well? Like would her coat shed more normally in the spring?

What are the general sign and symptoms in Cushings?

I forwarded your request to a very dear friend of mine who dealt with this very same problem in his retired mare. There are some new therapies out there that may help. In his case, his mare was very comfortable and healthy until she died a natural death at almost 30 years old.

“He doth nothing but talk of his horse.” Shakespeare - The Merchant of Venice

Lilblackhorse…that link doesn’t work could you provide a correct one…thanks

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

The realtionship between thyroid, IR and Cushings is complex. It can be exhibited many ways and for many reasons…but they are not necessarily a succession or progression into Cushings.

IR can be caused by many things…some believe genetics is the key. That some “easy keeper” or hardy breeds (ponies, Morgans, Arabs, some QHs, some Apps, Pasos, Mustangs…) have a “hardy” gene that allows them to survive during periods of drought, winter, or other famine. This genetic ability produces fat stores for future use and allows them to live on very low carb diets. Therefore, this is not a “disorder” but a way of life for these horses.

Other things related to IR are mineral imbalances: generally magnesium deficency as Mg is key in celluar function and reception, hormonal imbalances: thyroid and pituitary outputs impact most of the body’s hormonal out puts either directly or indirectly. When the pituitary is disrupted with a tumor (Cushings) the body produces high amounts of cortisol which effects the thyroid and other hormones. High cortisol out put can also be found in horses in chronic pain. Thyroid can be disrupted by many things…mineral imbalances (specifically selenium and iodine deficency, possibly magnesium deficeny). Thyroid is also effected by stress, age and pain. As age increses, metabolism and exercise generaally decrese.

The realtionship of IR and thyroid is not neccessarily related, but can be found in some and most likely related to similar mineral imbalances. The relationship between Cusings and thyroid is commonly found as the cortisol effects the thyroid and there is general hormal imbalances throughout the body. The development of the Cushings tumor is probably a mystery as are all similar things. There may be genetic predisposition, it may be related to old age, or it may just be “shit happens”. The million $$ question would be is it “caused” by IR or thyroid?

So far, we and many others doing field trials have found that management through diet is the ultimate key to preventing chronic laminitis and in keeping Cushings horses healthy, managing insulin levels and restoring hormonal balance. There are some who indicate that their Cushings horses are healthy without meds and only dietary controls, but I would have to question the diagnosis as Cushings testings is a relatively new thing and we have found that many Cushings horses are misdiagnosed.

My Cushings horse is on the same “all forage” diet that I provide for all my horses now. He is for some strange reason only Cushings and doesn’t exhibit any other problems like IR, carb intolerance, or thyroid disfunction. However, we caught it very early and provided the dietary changes and put him on Hormonize (Evitex) right away. He improved (was depressed, not eating well, saggy belly, swayed backed, long coat, compromised immune system, gained a ton of weight overnight, cresty neck, fat pads on shoulders/tail head) greatly and now only exhibits the long coat, but that is improving each time he sheds. He did not respond to magnesium supplementation as most horses would (reduction in crest/fat deposits). He has never foundered. I also have an IR Peruvian and a “hormonal” problem mare that we believe is hyperprolacticemia…but have no way of knowing. She has a good dispositon, and looks in all ways healthy. No Cushings, no cresty neck…but her udder and the area in front swell in cycle with the cresty necks I have tracted…so I guess this is why of exhibiting the same thing. She was a chronic founder case that came to us when the owner could not deal with it. She tests within normal ranges for insulin/glucose/thyroid.

The diet that I provide is year old grass hay (or soaked new hay for the IR and hormonal horses), beet pulp ajusted according to how much they need to maintain/gain weight, alfalfa/mix cubes (also ajusted for weight maintenance), black oil sunflower seeds, flax meal, kelp, a vit/min mix, probiotics, additional magnesium and other sups as needed per individual. All of this is no more than 20% of their overall diet by weight. I have found that by adding MSM, that I have eliminated all joint supplements except for the Peruvian who had suspensory issues when he came to us. He gets hylaronic acid in place of glucosamine supplements as it addresses his issues better and glucosamine can raise insulin levels. I eventually arrived at this mix as I had to eliminate all commercial feed products and supplements (such as the one I was using for protein) because the carb content was too high for the IR and hormonal horses. The “normal” horses are also doing great on this diet and look the best ever.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

Oh slb, I didn’t realize you were referring to insulin resistence and not full-blown Cushing’s. My apologies. I do agree with you that diet management IS the future of treating metabolic disorders, and you can be sure I would have tried it on my mare if I’d known about it. Even Hormonise was not on the market yet when she was diagnosed!

Looking back with the knowledge and information I have now, there are so many things I would have done differently. Perhaps that is why I get a bit defensive at the mention of newer treatments.

I didn’t say pergolide is the “golden drug” or a cure-all…it most certainly isn’t! But it is still seen as the “gold standard” in Cushing’s treatment. That said, I’m glad to know there is something better on the horizon.

xena, pergolide has been known to reduce or even eliminate the symptoms of Cushing’s when used at a therapeutic dose (different with each horse). Any therapy effective in regulating the hormonal output of the pituitary adenoma should have the same effect. Symptoms should improve or, ideally, disappear. You have many choices available to you, and like slb, I too would advise trying milder therapies first…especially if your horse’s symptoms aren’t yet severe. If those therapies fail, you have the pergolide as a backup.

Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

Generally, the first visual sign is non-shedding or patchy shedding. But, there are many others that are related to Cushings, but not neccessarily exclusive to Cushings (neither is non-shedding):
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
weight gain
weight loss
muscle wasting
excessive drinking/urination
cresty neck
fat deposits on shoulders/withers/tail head areas
compromised immune system
chronic laminitis
runny eyes
depression
behavior changes (some become agressive, especially later as the tumor grows)
“pot” belly (not like a hay belly)
sagging back
curly coat (especially when wet)
poor coat quality
“greasy” feeling coat
pungent odor (especially when sweating)
excessive/patchy/non sweating
manure has strange odor
lack of energy
some do not want to eat or eat very little
[/list]
I’m sure there are more that I am not remembering.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *