Cushinoid horse with excessive sweating...even when it's cool outside. Experiences?

[sid]

I’ll preface to say that I’ve managed a fair number of horses with Cushing’s (and IR) over the years.

But I’ve never had one display one the of the many symptoms that can present with this disease…that is excessive sweating.

I’m not talking about when the weather is warm, burdened with a slow-shedding, excessive hair coat. I’m talking about a horse that is just now bringing in the winter coat (it’s not long at all yet), but even in 40 degree weather is wet and blowing salt as well.

We just bumped up her Prascend, but it is a bit of a quandary how to manage this if the increased meds don’t stop this symptom.

I just gave her a hot water bath today to get all the salt off of her (it’s in the 60’s but cool and cloudy). She stinks from sweating all the time. Typically I would put on an Irish knit or polarfleece to help dry her off after a bath, but I’m afraid she will sweat more. Obviously, the excessive sweating is not weather related – that I know how to manage.

Otherwise, she looks good and feels well.

I’m trying anticipate how to handle this when it’s 30 degrees and she’s still pouring sweat.

Who else has had a Cushoind horse with this particular symptom regardless of the weather or hair coat.

TIA.

[newhorsemommy]

What does your vet think? My Cushing’s gelding has problems with the heat (even shed out), and is definitely a harder keeper in the summer, but nothing like you’re describing. He will also stand in the shade year-round, even when it’s cold out, but he doesn’t sweat excessively.

Do you think clipping would help?

You could look into chaste berry and see if anyone describes it as helping that particular symptom. I just started my gelding on SmartPituitary on top of the Prascend (vet said it was OK) because the Prascend is controlling his ACTH levels very well, so we don’t want to increase it, but it’s not controlling all of the outward symptoms (coat, muscle loss, etc.).

[sid]

Newhorsemommy,

I don’t think you understood my post. I have decades of experience with Cushing’s. No…clipping will not help, as I said. She’s not sweating from heat.

Yes, did all the chasteberry stuff years ago, so I don’t need help in “treatment” on the internet. I know this disease all too well, and of course, my vet is intimately involved.

It’s just that I’ve never had one show this particular symptom, regardless of hair coat or weather/temps. Thus my post.

Just need experiences with this uncommon symptom of but apparently does presents in some individuals. I have one it seems.

I was seeking experiences and management of these types from others whose Cushing’s horses had this particular symptom.

Thanks for replying though.

[Katy_Watts]

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/endocrine_system/the_pituitary_gland/hirsutism_associated_with_adenomas_of_the_pars_intermedia.html?qt=ppid%20temperature%20regulation&alt=sh

I have heard that inability to regulate temperature is a common finding.
"Such adenomas often severely compress the overlying hypothalamus, which is the primary center for homeostatic regulation of body temperature, appetite, and cyclic shedding of hair. "

[newhorsemommy]

Well, I understand that she’s not sweating from the heat, but it seems like clipping might help nevertheless. It’s a thermoregulation problem (as I’m sure you know). I’m worried my gelding may eventually get there because as I mentioned he seeks out the shade year round even when he should be sunning himself in the winter.

I’m not quite there yet myself (although I’m close), but everyone I’ve ever seen having a hot flash strips down as fast as humanly possible even though they’re not sweating from the heat.

[sid]

Thanks, Katy. I had read about this as well. Which is why I’ve been diligent about the winter/summer thing with them (others) with the hair coat issue – and that seems logical. An abnormal hair coat surely would affect the ability to control body temp. Do due diligence on that care for decades for others.

This, however, has nothing to do with hair coat and trying to manage that with varying seasons and temps. Thus the quandary with this.

I too have seen this “symptom” presented in papers, but not a specific paper on those that cannot regulate temp regardless of hair coat, season, etc.

I’ll start digging. Need to manage this for my kiddo (a Boleem homebred, now aged 17).

I wonder if this unique symptom speaks to the escalation of the disease among others and is less manageable that the other myriad of symptoms.

I’m a science head so I’ll keep pursuing answers to help me manage this for her…esp. coming into winter. Wet in summer not bad, drenched in water in winter, not good.

[sid]

[QUOTE=newhorsemommy;8392469]

I’m not quite there yet myself (although I’m close), but everyone I’ve ever seen having a hot flash strips down as fast as humanly possible even though they’re not sweating from the heat.[/QUOTE]

Horse, not human.

[newhorsemommy]

Same principle though A hot flash is a thermoregulation issue.

[Katy_Watts]

If the hyperplasia is pressing on the hypothalamus, I don’t think there is anything to be done except to deal with symptoms. My PPID mare used to stand out in blizzards until icicles and drifts formed on her. She never shivered or acted cold. Then one breezy day in fall, she’d be cold when the other horses were still comfy. I think instead of guessing what they need, we need to observe frequently and help them out. If they seem comfortable without a blanket out in a storm, let them be. If they are sweating, clip or give them a fan, regardless of what we think they need. Give them options of sun/shade, in/out and let them choose.

Doubt you’ll find much info. There is zilch controlled research on PPID. Most is theory, anecdotal observation and extrapolation.

[sid]

[QUOTE=newhorsemommy;8392512]
Same principle though A hot flash is a thermoregulation issue.[/QUOTE]

I won’t argue with you on this…who ever said a horse with Cushing’s was having a “hot flash”. You seem to be equating this to “menopause”…clearly a human condition.

I’ll say it again. Two completely different species and never can you equate them as the same. That’s very anthropomorphic and also can be a be a bit cavalier when assessing a horse’s disease situation.

Not trying to smack you down, but… it was so nice of you to write and keep writing as you’ve said you have a horse with Cushing’s. I’m sure it concerns you.

The symptoms that we all know are clear, then testing, etc. to confirm. Then treat accordingly. Been there, done that for decades. I’ve dealt with all the symptoms and managed them well.

In THIS case, it is a bit unique. Pouring sweat regardless of the hair coat or the temperature. Going into very cold winter, clearly this concerns me. The horse is going to sweat whether she is clipped and blanketed or not. A bit of a “zebra”.

Again, thus my post.

[newhorsemommy]

I’m certainly not trying to be cavalier, nor was I equating Cushing’s to menopause. You never mentioned in your OP whether you’ve tried clipping, or if she sweats when fully clipped. Nor does your post suggest how long this has been occurring. Has she been sweating like this for two years or two weeks?

Clip or don’t clip. Whatever.

[Katy_Watts]

I would want to find out if the horse has an abnormal core temperature, or an abnormal response.
It might be useful to put a clipboard in the barn and start charting rectal temperatures. I would want to know the ambient temperature, the variation between rectal and ambient for normal horses and this horse. In all sorts of weather, windy, wet, cold, sunny/warm.
Then you’d know how much this horse needs for help maintaining proper core temperature. If it drops significantly on a windy day when the horse is wet, I’d be more inclined to clip and blanket as needed. I know this is a PIA. PPID horses are not easy or cheap.

[Calamber]

I know you do not respect many so called alternative therapies but do you know about Photonic Therapy? It is fairly simple to learn how to do and requires only a simple infrared light.

“There is an alternative or complementary means of treatment that has been known to have positive results. Photonic therapy is the scientific application of light, to particular areas of the skin to produce particular physiological results such as pain relief, increased immune response and improved healing. Photonic therapy has been shown to be successful in treating Cushing’s Disease. By understanding the science of how acupuncture works through the autonomic nervous system as well as the spinal nerve transmission from skin stimulation, photonic therapy offers a whole new paradigm and hope of long term relief for Cushing’s Disease sufferers. Read more about photonic therapy and its application.”

This was taken from this article. Ignore the controversy about MacLauren who developed some fancy laser, you likely have a friend or colleague who has one that you can use, you will just need to learn the particular acutpuncture points that need to be addressed.

http://www.cushings-disease.com/horses

And before all of those who thrive on peer reviewed studies jump in, you will not find them, so don’t bother looking.

[sid]

[QUOTE=Katy Watts;8392644]
I would want to find out if the horse has an abnormal core temperature, or an abnormal response.
It might be useful to put a clipboard in the barn and start charting rectal temperatures. I would want to know the ambient temperature, the variation between rectal and ambient for normal horses and this horse. In all sorts of weather, windy, wet, cold, sunny/warm.
Then you’d know how much this horse needs for help maintaining proper core temperature. If it drops significantly on a windy day when the horse is wet, I’d be more inclined to clip and blanket as needed. I know this is a PIA. PPID horses are not easy or cheap.[/QUOTE]

Thanks. New territory and not much about it from a practical standpoint. I so appreciate and respect your input.

[sid]

[QUOTE=Calamber;8392704]
I know you do not respect many so called alternative therapies
A[/QUOTE]

Oh my gosh. You don’t know anything about me.

With all due respect, please know I was doing “alternative” therapies some 25 years ago when chiro, Eastern medicine were considered “voodoo”. Also one of the first to use electromagnetic therapy, ultrasound for lower limb injuries. I never told my horse friends as I knew I’d be admonished for all my “alternative” trials.

And my farm was used as a trial for Cosaquin for Dr. Henderson…before it was put on the market, and funded the first university studies for what is now Marquis for EPM.

Geez. Kind of funny you’d say this. If anyone reaches out to alternatives it is me, when there is some viable data on alternatives.

As I said, I’m well versed in Cushing’s/IR and many other horse maladies.

Just looking for specific information from people that have had chronic sweating as a symptom of Cushing’s and their experiences handling it in the winter months.

Thanks for posting though.

[Calamber]

Sorry, for heaven’s sake, must have confused you with someone else. I have handled about 10-15 Cushing horses and donkeys in my time but have not had the sweating problem because they were either clipped and blanketed in the cold, or in the case of a very elderly mare, who was not clipped in the winter, nor blanketed, she was not a sweater. If I had known about this I would have tried it to see if it would help.

Otherwise, all you can do is do what Katy recommends with the temp check but still you will need to monitor, towel dry or layer and strip and keep the horse out of cold drafts. Since all that the Prascend is doing is regulating the pituitary gland output, if you are dealing with a growing tumor of the pituatary gland that is pressing on the hypothalamus that will obviously affect the symptoms beyond the control of the medication.

[sid]

Thanks, Calamber.

Much of my challenge is that she, like my other horses, live mostly out with very nice sheds. They come in for work (she’s retired), vet, farrier, grooming, etc.

With winter on the way, there’s no way I can keep her away from the cold, though she uses the shed big-time. She even sweats in her stall. I’m afraid to clip (she doesn’t even have her full winter coat yet) and blanket for fear of making the problem worse. I’ll check with my vet on that. I’ve only had to clip those with a massive hair coat that won’t shed (late stage) in the late Spring.

I’m keeping my fingers crossed that the increased dose of Prascend will help stop this perpetual sweating. This is a challenge, for sure.

[sid]

FYI – I’m please to report that the increased dose of Prascend seems to be doing the trick. Excessive sweating has stopped as of this a.m. Bumped her dose a little over a week ago.

[Kachina]

What is her dose now sid? Do you split it?

[sid]

She was on 1 tab per day. Bumped it to 1 1/2 per day (once daily).