Custom Stubben Saddle; but does it fit? 🤷🏼‍♀️

[beowulf]

Just curious do they ever post before/after photos of the hollows actually being filled in?

Those hollows seem to be present at birth for some horses. I don’t doubt some hollows are cause by poor saddle fit but what about the horses who don’t have riding careers? My breed of choice (TBs) have them - even in young/unstarted stock. TBs don’t own the cornerstone of hollow wither pockets - I see WBs with them too. It begs the question of what they think of stallions like Gun Runner or Into Mischief - top racing stallions who do not have a riding career but have the hollows.

N=1, this is my really radical take on the hollows. I think that they, along with the somewhat abnormal musculature you see just above the trapezius, can be present in horses with cervical malformation. That does not mean the horse can’t be ridden - ECVM seems to be in just about every breed - but I wonder sometimes if we are seeing the physical impact of abnormal muscle/ligament attachment because of abnormal or absent processes.

[sheltona01]

You’re absolutely on point! Some issues stem from saddle fitting, while others can arise from various factors like conditioning, genetics, conformation, how they are ridden and more.

I’ve seen it myself with many of my clients and have affected positive change with saddle fitting with the hollows disappearing. However, it’s really a team effort that also involves the dedication and hard work of the rider and their team.

It seems like there’s quite a bit of misinformation coming from that group.

[clburnham11]

I myslef have never seen a before and after post in that group, but it could exist. It’s a shame because I did learn some good things from that group, but over the past year or so I feel like it’s gone bonkers.

Interesting thought about the ecvm thing. My guy has the hollows (minor) and thankfully normal neck films, but definitely a valuable observation. We’ll see more and more of it I’m sure! Absolutely agree it’s a complex combination of factors, not just saddle damage from not having a stubben

I’m so curious what that group would say if they saw this post and the monstrous saddles and fitting issues stubben stood by. The photos don’t lie!

[CanteringCarrot]

@beowulf

Just curious do they ever post before/after photos of the hollows actually being filled in?

Those hollows seem to be present at birth for some horses. I don’t doubt some hollows are cause by poor saddle fit but what about the horses who don’t have riding careers? My breed of choice (TBs) have them - even in young/unstarted stock. TBs don’t own the cornerstone of hollow wither pockets - I see WBs with them too. It begs the question of what they think of stallions like Gun Runner or Into Mischief - top racing stallions who do not have a riding career but have the hollows.

N=1, this is my really radical take on the hollows. I think that they, along with the somewhat abnormal musculature you see just above the trapezius, can be present in horses with cervical malformation. That does not mean the horse can’t be ridden - ECVM seems to be in just about every breed - but I wonder sometimes if we are seeing the physical impact of abnormal muscle/ligament attachment because of abnormal or absent processes.

I’ve thought all of these thoughts! Glad to see someone else mention this stuff.

I’ve met many horses young, old, and in the middle that are not or have never been ridden. Some of those horses had wither hollows. I’ve been watching my own horse since he was a yearling in respect to how his withers and back change. It’s been interesting. It’s not always the saddle.

[IPEsq]

I think it’s more the scalenes and the intervertebral attachments that are affected by the transposition malformations, compared to the trapezius, especially lower traps. The top of the trapezius comes from the nuchal ligament at C2. The lower traps attach at T3 at the withers. And then the distal attachments are on the scapula. Even if they had cranial rib abnormalities, this is the wrong muscle group to be affected, since it’s superficial and the attachment is far dorsal of the ribs.

I’ve known some ECVM horses who either never had hollows at the withers or were able to have that issue fixed pretty readily following switching to a better fitting saddle (was very obvious that particular horse had been ridden in a bad saddle for a long time—rubbed off fur, granulomas under the tree points, bad withers hollows), so I don’t think there is a functional or anatomical link between that particular condition and poor muscling of the trapezius, even if some of them may also tend to have a more developed under neck or asymmetry ventrally.

[Heinz_57]

@sheltona01

There’s been quite a bit of buzz in the fitter community about that group lately! Unfortunately, it’s turned a bit sour, with moderators banning people who express any questions or concerns about their posts or the information shared. I tend to keep my distance since it feels pretty negative, and it seems more like a promotion platform for Stubben, which isn’t really in line with my views on fitting.

Well, now it’s all about Aviar and how great they are because that’s the newest brand the rep (oops, “independent fitter”) has buddied up with.

It has basically been stated there that the SMS way of fitting is “wrong” (if not directly, it’s definitely been implied). I no longer consider the group a good source of information, just one person’s platform for spouting.

[sheltona01]

I was trying to be polite. I can’t help but notice that there’s a lot of misinformation being spread, and unfortunately, it’s the horses that will bear the consequences.

Just a quick note: the SMS isn’t actually 1 method to fit. There are quite a few different perspectives out there within the group. One of the biggest advantages of the SMS is the wealth of knowledge from the industry and the professional guidelines it offers. This really highlights a gap in understanding from the facebook group.

One of my favorite aspects of this situation is that the recent round of bans occurred because people kept asking about the training they had received or what they considered to be effective training. Instead of answering, they chose to block those who asked. I’ve noticed that there are quite a few Aviars on the second-hand market that are less than a year old, and there was been a complete recall for the first couple of years of models as well.

[Heinz_57]

@sheltona01

I was trying to be polite.

Understandable considering you’re in the industry and all. The original group (pre-take over) was a helpful place with a lot of good saddle fitters chiming in from a variety of backgrounds and brands.

I would love to attend the SMS courses! If only I had the time to travel.

[sheltona01]

They are now offering online courses.