Custom Stubben Saddle; but does it fit? 🤷🏼‍♀️

[katiesteph]

Ok soooo…I have a BIG withered, MASSIVE shouldered OTTB that I decided to take the plunge and order my first true custom saddle for. I had our local Stubben fitter out to try a bunch and landed on a Phoenix Elite. We ordered the saddle, she suggested the special “RP” panels in the front and rear to give his wither enough clearance. Fast forward about 10 weeks, the saddle has arrived BUT when I put it on him, I couldn’t help but feel like it didn’t seem to fit him like I envisioned it would. There was some gaping at the front and I felt like the rear panels were REALLY tight against his back without the saddle even being girthed up yet…. I mentioned this to my rep but she said to give it a few rides sans saddle pad so the panels can soften and conform, which I understand. I’ve ridden in it a few times and i have noticed a few things, especially when lunging in it prior to getting on. 1) he doesn’t seem to be stepping out in the shoulder like usual, he almost seems a little bit stuck. 2) I noticed what looks almost like muscle twitching in his lumbar area by the rear panels when he is moving along. 3) when I take the saddle off, there is a noticeable area of “roughed up” hair in the wither area/behind the scapula almost in the shape of the front panels.

So HELP, am I being a neurotic horse mom and jumping to conclusions before I give it time to break in? Or is my hunch right and the saddle needs tweaking to make it fit more correctly?

**Included photos/video of it on my horse for reference!

IMG_5037|666x500

3b006b2862a24203a89330fd348879d1

[dmveventer]

@katiesteph

So HELP, am I being a neurotic horse mom and jumping to conclusions before I give it time to break in? Or is my hunch right and the saddle needs tweaking to make it fit more correctly?

It’s probably both. Wool-flocked saddles do need time to break in, your fitter isn’t wrong for wanting to let things settle before they start making adjustments. Even if they came out now and got it absolutely perfect things would shift as the wool compressed and you’d be back to square 1 in a few weeks. I had to do this with mine since my horse’s asymmetry made the saddle unstable out of the box and his back was already sore for other reasons so I had my rep out to get it rideable and then they came back out again to do a real fitting a few weeks later. If it isn’t causing your horse pain I would ride in it for a bit and have them out to check it around the 3 week mark. It may take a few rounds of adjustments from there to get it exactly right, assuming the basic structure of the saddle fits your horse and only the flocking is the issue.

[JB]

The 3/4 front, and the side view pics aren’t helpful as the perspective is too skewed.

As the saddle in the video is sitting on the horse, it’s either too far forward, or too narrow, OR, the panels need a bit of time to compress a bit.

If we assume it’s the latter, then your fitter is right. Have them back in a couple of weeks and see what’s what.

[katiesteph]

Thank you, this is helpful! To note, this is what his back looks like after a 20 minute ride. I have noticed he is being worse about falling in both directions since switching to the new saddle, and having a harder time stepping out and stretching than he has up until this switch I’m just an anxious horse mom that is trying my best to avoid causing pain/discomfort that could lead to long term behavior changes both under saddle and during grooming/saddle time IMG_5056|666x500

[barnesthenoble]

That sweat mark and the video both make me think the saddle is way too far forward. I would scoot it back an inch or two and see if you notice a difference (and if it stays there). That could be part of why your horse is uncomfortable in his shoulders…it looks to me like the tree points would be digging right in to his shoulders with the way the saddle is currently positioned.

Good luck, I’ve totally been there with the custom saddle nightmare (not with Stubben tho!) and I know it can be so stressful.

[dmveventer]

I agree with the advice to move the saddle back, but otherwise it doesn’t sound like you have any problems that would make me pull the saddle immediately. Schedule an appointment with your fitter for a few weeks and try not to worry about it in the meantime. It’s really unlikely that 2-3 weeks would be enough to cause long-term problems even if it was a really bad fit, which yours doesn’t seem to be. Horses are more resilient than we give them credit for sometimes.

I’ve heard the Stubbens do well on horses with withers like that so I think you have a good shot at a good fit after the break-in period.

[JB]

Agree, the saddle is too far forward.

Put it on over the withers, no pad, close your eyes, and slide the saddle back. When it “sticks” that’s where it needs to sit, and that’s where you evaluate the fit.

If it sticks in this position, it’s still possible the flocking needs to compress a bit, but it still needs to slide back. The tree point needs to be 1-2" behind the scapula at rest, or have someone pull a front leg forward so you can see the scapula rotate back, and the saddle needs to be just behind that.

[katiesteph]

Thank you all! You’re probably right, I thought I had it far enough back but it seems not so much I’ll try again tomorrow and fingers crossed for a difference

[sascha]

I’ll be the odd one out. If that hair pattern at the withers is like that from being ridden and not because you were messing with it (combing it forward) to dry it out, the saddle does not fit properly. It may be as simple as getting a different girth that swoops forward to the girth groove. But, that hair pattern tells me the saddle wants to be more forward which is exactly where it shouldn’t be.

Another way to judge placement for making sure you’ve got the saddle settled properly is to set the saddle on, reach under to feel the bony shoulder bit, put your other hand at the tree point in front of the stirrup bar and then compare the placement of your 2 hands. You want your tree point/stirrup bar hand a good 1.5" (ish) behind your shoulder hand. You do not want to feel your shoulder hand being squished by a solid part of the saddle (it’s ok to feel the panel stuffing though)

I would do that, then attach the girth very loosely to see where it hangs. If it’s hanging back from the girth groove - there’s your problem, you need a girth shaped to hang more forwards. I’m not saying that’s going to solve the problem if there are other fitting issues, and there may be, but that’s one thing for your check list.

Ugh, changing saddles is a terrible test of patience. Good luck!

[2DogsFarm]

My WB had Mount Withers
The non-custom Stubben A/P I’d had for years, that fit every horse I’d used it on Did.Not.Fit. him.
I had a fitter & Stubben Rep out & tried at least 6 saddles. Ended up with a semi-custom (I wanted pencil kneerolls & no thighblock).
Fitter told me to ride for 6 weeks w/o any pad.
I followed her advice & saddle made me & horse very happy.

[Olderhorselady]

I had an OTTB with high, sensitive withers and Stubben made him an awesome saddle that made him extremely happy. It took several tries and adjustments to get it just right and everyone at Stubben (the fitters, the repair shop, and the Stubben NA office) were really helpful and nice during the entire process. Since you have concerns, go back to your fitter and have her evaluate the fit and see what can be done.

[beowulf]

I don’t love the fit from the photos I see - but not a saddle fitter, not a pro - just someone who has already gone down the saddle fitting journey many times.

In photos it does appear too far forward – but it also looks as if the panels are applying uneven pressure, and the saddle may be bridging. It doesn’t look like the front half of this saddle fits the horse’s shoulders. It looks as if the rear panels are too narrow, but the saddle appears too wide almost from the front. That could be why in the sweat mark photo it looks as if the saddle is traveling forward. It certainly looks like there is almost no panel contact at the front of the saddle. How many fingers can you put between the withers and your saddle when you are sitting in the saddle? While it looks like plenty of clearance with no rider weight, I’d want to make sure that the saddle is not pinching the shoulders with rider weight.

It could be photo angle, but it looks like the saddle is on the cusp of being too long for the horse’s back. It already looks like it is past the last rib in the photos.

Horses tell us the truth. Listen to your horse, not your fitter. If you are noticing the saddle is making him worse, then go back to your old saddle and see if you still notice the same lack of shoulder freedom or being stuck.

If you are not used to a forward cut saddle, another way to make sure it “clicks” in the right spot behind the shoulder is to place the saddle on the horse’s back, and pick up their front leg and pull it forward in a stretch. You should see the shoulder blade rotate, and see the saddle settle as you do so. Do on both sides before girthing.

My bias could be coming into play here as I have no faith in Stubben NA or its reps/fitters. I had a custom Stubben saddle that never even fit the horse, and was several tree sizes too small (28cm). For perspective, this horse now goes in a Black Country that is a full three tree sizes wider than the custom Stubben ever was. I first noticed the saddle was bridging. Rep said it was fine even though I noticed devolving performance. First it was a girth issue, then it was my riding causing the decreased performance. When I escalated to Stubben NA I was told that bridging is perfectly fine to “allow a space for the horse’s back to come up.” My horse was so sore from the saddle it took months of regular chiro and vet bills to reverse. He’s been happy in a BC for the last four years.

[beowulf]

P.S do not let Stubben NA or your rep talk you out of this if you feel it is not right. While your rep is correct that leather needs time to break in and wool needs time to settle, out of the box a properly fitting saddle should not have any glaring fit issues and no amount of leather break in or wool settling will fix a saddle that fundamentally does not complement the fit of the horse.

[illuminatedd]

I also had a Stubben rep who sold me a 28cm tree saddle that was too narrow in the tree and also did not fit the shape of his back at all (I didn’t know that at the time). My horse was miserable and the Stubben rep said the issues were due to my uneven riding. I was so relieved when I sold it. The horse is in a much wider saddle now, and from what I have seen, I feel that Stubben reps tend to automatically put TBs in a 27cm or 28cm tree when that may not always be appropriate. OP, trust your gut and what your horse is telling you!

[awaywego]

also had a Stubben rep want to put my TB in a 27cm tree… which was extra weird because the previous Stubben rep said he needed a 30-31cm tree Zero faith in their reps.

[beowulf]

Any changes now that it’s been a few months, @katiesteph ? Hoping for a positive update!

[katiesteph]

Funny you should ask LOL

So, my fitter came back about a month or so ago to check it. She worked with another internal staff member at Stubben to determine a fix. They suggested perhaps shimming the front and see if that helped, so I ordered a shimmable Mattes pad….which is still yet to have arrived

In the meantime, I grabbed a big squishy pad from work. It’s made by Passier and thought what the heck, I’ll see what happens when I use it.

It seemed like with that pad, the fur ruffling was greatly diminished/nearly non existent, so I rode in that for a bit

After a while, I tired my regular saddle pad/regular fleece half pad again and it seemed to be ok……

Until all of a sudden in the past week or so, my saddle has started just sliding up his wither

At first I chocked it up to perhaps I hadn’t tightened my girth enough and he was being quite sassy.

But the next time I rode, I triple checked my girth and still, within a few minutes of trot work, it started to migrate, and by the time I picked up the canter, we were way up the neck

I reached out to my fitter again explaining what was going on and she was also pretty surprised as to what was happening. She asked that I ride without any pads and take photos/videos to show where the saddle started/where it ended up before I had to re-adjust its position. (I’ll attach everything here)

Upon reviewing these, she suggested to try shimming the front again. So that is my next plan and see how it goes I’m not sure what else to do at this point, and I’d like an independent fitter to take a look but unsure of who services my area that is also well-versed in Stubbens

[beowulf]

Thank you for the update. What a disappointing lack of urgency on the saddle rep’s behalf to address this issue.

How exactly are shims going to fix the structural issue here that is the saddle not fitting the wither and shoulders? It is not as if those areas bulk up. Are you supposed to just ride with shims for the rest of this horse’s life?

In your shoes… I would not be passive about this. What you have to do is escalate this to HQ, and get a saddle to fit.

Your representative is hoping you will be too nice to send the saddle back, because that is her paycheck and she does not want to give it back.

[sascha]

@beowulf

It is not as if those areas bulk up.

Although I am not arguing about the saddle not fitting, withers and shoulders definitely bulk up over time with good work … and well-fitted tack.

[beowulf]

The shoulder and wither do not house significant fat deposits or muscle coverage the way the back does, so no, they do not bulk up in a way that could appreciably change the fit of this saddle.