CWD code help!

[Yospaghetti]

Hello!
I am shopping for a used CWD saddle for my wide shouldered high wither horse, which one of these would fit better? My current saddle tilts backward becuz of the high wither, need a saddle that I won’t have to use a back riser with. I am very petite, 5’2 110lb, prefer flatter seat.
Thank you!

#1 SE32 S1 TC 2C
PA 705 905 RT RG

#2 SE38 S1 2CH
PA 705 805 RT+

#3 SE38 S1 2LH
PA RT

#4 SE38 S0 2LH
PA 705 205 305 RT RG

If none of these fits, what is the “magic combination” i should look out for ?

[Belmont]

It’s hard to say which one will work best without seeing pictures of the horse & video of the horse in motion.

What do you ride in right now?

Just based off “high wither” and you already having to use a back riser, I’d eliminate the third saddle.

705 - 5mm of foam taken from the front of the saddle
805 - 5mm of foam added to the area that’s supposed to be the shoulder gusset.
905 - 5mm of foam added to the 805 all the way back.

RT - foam shaved for point of shoulder
RT + - extra foam shaved for point of shoulder
RG - foam shaved around wither area when extra padding is added to relieve pressure

Purely based off the info in the post I’d lean towards the 905 panel. Just note the CH is a lower forward flap, think Voltaire style where as a C is a normal forward flap.

[Yospaghetti]

Thank you so much! I will try take a photo of my horse to show you.

My current saddle is PA ST RT, it does not fit him at all

[Yospaghetti]

Heres a photo of his wither, theres a small shoulder “dip”(?) on each side, like it hollows in a bit.

[Yospaghetti]

Also how exactly is Madem differ from their classic model? Is it lighter? Is Madem suitable for high withered horses?

I added another model (#4) to the options, please advise if #1,#2 or #4 is better.

Thank you

[hj.eq.xc]

That dip behind the shoulder is from an under developed trapezius muscle due to an inappropriate tree/tree point FYI, not nessesarily “big shoulders.” I wouldn’t recommend CWD for your horse to be honest based on those pics because you won’t be able to get adequate wither clearance top and sides. Otherwise, from what the pics show, your horse is muscled well along the back and topline which would further indicate to me anyway that it’s a tree point problem you have going on where those dips are, not an “out of shape” problem. I would hazard a guess saying that the current saddle you ride in has more paneling through the front to create top wither clearance but because of that, the saddle balance is WAY off and low behind. I would back away from a CWD, you are going to have a hard time getting something that will provide adequate wither clearance and be balanced on him front to back. Since you’re in the market for a new to you saddle anyway, I would consider something else if I were in your shoes.

[Yospaghetti]

Thank you for your sugesstion, i appreciate you taking the time to respond.

My barn is cwd sponsored so CWD saddle is HIGHLY recommended, but I dont want to spend 8k on a brand new custom saddle, I had to look for a used one that can moderately accomodate

[Demerara_Stables]

Your barn being sponsored by a saddle brand should not come before your horse’s welfare (that being a properly fitted saddle). @hj.eq.xc is correct - you need to look at a different brand. That will require you finding an independent saddle fitter (not the brand rep selling the CWDs). Not to be harsh, but if you don’t find a properly fitting saddle now, your horse (and you) will be paying the price down the road.

[Belmont]

Their Classic models are a wood composite blend. The Madem series & 2GS are all dynamic trees (carbon fiber & kevlar). The Madem specifically is lighter, has a U shaped pommel (supposed to be for a womens pelvis but I sold a LOT to men back in my day LOL), and has a different foam that supposed to be more comfy in the seat that the gel foam in the 2Gs.

Saddle #4 is a “Pro Panel” and probably won’t work. Its going to depend on how much clearance the wither needs. Again, hard to tell with physically being there with my hands on and seeing/feeling how the saddles fit.

Your current saddle is just a standard, so I can see why you need a riser and I’m going to guess it doesn’t have enough wither clearance either.

If you’re absolutely wanting a CWD, the 905 panel might be the best option to try out of the list. Not saying it will work or that there is a magic combo for your guy that will be perfect, but if that is what you really want, you can always take it on trial. I’m not sure what CWDs policy is anymore but they used to be 30 days or something like that.

However, @hj.eq.xc is correct that a CWD might not be your best option here. I’d explore other saddles, have other fitters out. I’m a big proponent of trying every brand that you can. I’m a princess in a pea when it comes to saddles, and I think there is nothing wrong with sitting in everything that you have available to you in your area. Independent fitters often carry great brands that are less common and are a great option to have out along with whatever other brands/reps you want to try.

One last that to mention is that EVERYTHING changes in motion. Just because you sit a saddle on the horses back and it doesn’t sit totally balanced at first, doesn’t mean it wont balance out once girthed down and you begin working. This isn’t true for every horse, so maybe it’s not true for yours either, but there were a lot of cases that I had horses fitting totally different once they were working. More isn’t always best.

[IPEsq]

I suspect it’s sitting pommel high because the tree is too narrow more so than your horse has prominent withers. His back doesn’t look to be that low in comparison. Unfortunately, you aren’t going to find a wider tree in any of these saddles.

I have a young horse who really liked my 2Gs for a while. That horse is now at least 3cm wider than when he wore that saddle. There’s no CWD, even a custom one, that is going to fit him anymore.

[Yospaghetti]

Thank you I appreciate the candid feedback, absolutely agree!

[Yospaghetti]

Thank you so much!!! What exactly is “pro panel”?

[Yospaghetti]

Thank you!! My saddle is def very narrow tree, i will try to find one wider for my next one!

[hj.eq.xc]

If you’re being pushed to buy CWD because your barn is sponsored and not because it is theoretically giving you and your horse the best fit, that’s a bigger “problem” in my opinion. I definitely understand where you are coming from, being in a CWD sponsored barn and saddle shopping. I used to ride at a CWD sponsored barn and my trainer was and is really good friends with the North American head for the company over here but my trainer was happy to have anyone from any saddle company come in or independents and do all the things to try to find a saddle that was the best fit. She also wasn’t at all afraid of being honest about CWD when it wasn’t working for us. I have since moved my horses but still train with her. She is still very pro CWD in general, but her main thing is to do best by the horse and every trainer/program, sponsored or not, should too.

I had similar problems with my CWD and most French saddles with my boy that you are describing. In order to get wither clearance along the top, the pommel would sit too high so I would need a back riser despite foam added to the back panels (and I went custom once through CWD and once through Voltaire, neither worked and tried countless of most brands used) and it would just make him sore and then he would start to buck and get sticky, because the tree is the problem and you can’t “panel out” an inappropriate tree but I digress. Being able to ride in an insert expensive brand of choice here is not worth it to you or your horses wellbeing. If I were you, I would just give this a bit of thought before you go with a CWD, used or otherwise, just because it’s a CWD. I’m not a certified fitter but based on the back pics of your horse, I would cast the net further in searching for something for you and your horse.

Also, the tree is often only one width, typically a Medium Wide and then is paneled in or shaved to “adjust” it. If I were to hazard a guess, your horse is probably a Mediumish tree width (would probably be wider if trapezius was developed and the tree point could follow/be parallel to the line of his shoulder), and you need more fill in the front to prevent it from sitting on his withers but that makes it fit pommel high now, sitting up too high, the cantle is dropped and you now need a back riser to balance the seat. You said you think the saddle is too narrow, the tree is not more than likely, the paneling is too full, potentially because a fitter probably said you need it to fill those dips behind his scapula, which is the under developed trapezius from a saddle that is putting pressure on the area (read inappropriate tree) but you can’t necessarily have less panel fill through the front because it will just smush the withers. Would you be open to posting a pic with the current saddle on, a pic taken from the shoulder to show the wither clearance from the front and then the side to show balance maybe? No worries if you aren’t open to that, I’m curious if it fits at all like the saddles I tried on my boy.

[Yospaghetti]

Yes i will! I wont be at the barn until Thurs but I will make sure to take a photo of it. Your information is so valuable, I will be sure to give some fredback to my trainer.

May I ask since your horse has had similar problems, what brand of saddle works for him the best? I have never ridden in anything else other than a CWD, so bit clueless on where to even begin 🥲

[hj.eq.xc]

That’s great! Before CWD, I had tried Devocoux, Butet, Voltaire, Antares, Pessoa, through various fitters/reps and I think some others but I lost track , Then, I tried CWD, got to trial some and ended up going custom. Basically, the CWD ended up so badly right after my Voltaire being a disaster that I departed the French world and went to Stubben. I had some really good luck with a second hand Portos Elite that I found on their website after figuring out what would work best for me and my horse with the fitter/rep. I definitely ended up getting a narrower saddle than I thought I would, I think there was a bit of a detransition period for my horse where he began to muscle up more properly and use himself MUCH better. I did have to use a back riser and it was wool flocked but the panel depth was not enough to put enough wool in it to balance the seat. I had the saddle for about a year, before he was getting uncomfortable in it. I had the rep back out and we did some new fittings and decided to get new panels with a deeper gusset put on my current saddle and have the tree widened 1 cm. Unfortunately, the changes didn’t end up working so I ended up selling it which was a bummer. I wasn’t super happy with the new Stubben’s I was seeing and the one I had tried at the fittings so I didn’t bother exploring them further for a new saddle. For my horse, they really worked as a transitional saddle, but the tree just wasn’t suitable for him longterm and I felt that the rep was trying to get wither clearance by just fitting him too narrow, especially as his back changed.

From there I ended up piggy backing onto a fitting last minute with an Independent fitter/rep, she reps a few different companies so not technically independent but also not only a rep (turned out she also fits my vets horses which I guess is a good sign). I/my horse ended up really loving an Albion she had. The model was a K2, CC tree. Albion is not a super Hunterland brand, they are English and aren’t really targeting that market yet unfortunately (they are owned by LIM now but from what my fitter was saying, LIM is being more hands off with them since Albion makes all their own trees and such in house only, rather than a separate tree manufacturer) Right now I have a used K2 I found with my fitter and am using that while I build up topline over the winter (lack of saddle meant lack of working) and I will hopefully find a K2 CC model for this coming season because I prefer a flatter seat and my horse needs a slightly flatter tree because of how he mobilizes through his spine in motion. I have had great feedback for when I was using it briefly from my vet and bodyworker which was a huge plus. It is honestly all about the fitter you can get and then finding what tree works for your horses anatomy, easier said than done. I was able to see raw trees sit on my horses back and take demo saddles on trials for multiple weeks. If you can find someone who can do this, that is great! My sister’s horse went great in an Amerigo, he is curvier. I don’t know where you are but I am happy to send my fitter to you (I’m in New England) if you would like, I have been super happy with her.

[Demerara_Stables]

As someone passionate about saddle fit, I really appreciate your in depth notes about your fitting process! No doubt you learned a lot and lots of people can learn from what you posted here - thank you!