Dani Waldman admits to never turning out horses

[anon510129]

Not turning my horse out with others is actually for her. When we did the PPE, the vet said she had an old injury on one of her hind legs and absolutely could never be in a position where she could be kicked in that leg. Not only would it end her career, but possibly her life.

I see no justification for turning show horses out together over turning them out next to each other. Scratching, biting and playing can all be done safely from either side of the fence. People arguing that handwalking is sufficient over free time in a pasture (sand pen, whatever) and turnout together versus individually are two completely different arguments IMO.

One is for their own safety (turning out separately) versus not turning out at all because they could play too hard (so they don’t get injured therefore we can’t show).

[vxf111]

And how do you know other people’s decision to restrict turnout for their competition horses are not motivated by all the exact same concerns @Rumorhasit93 For all we know Dani’s horses also have pre-existing issues that put them at risk from turnout.

Some might say you’re being no more/less selfish than Dani is. Your horse has a pre-existing injury. Instead of turning her loose in a field to live out happy carefree days you ask her to compete for you. In order to keep her able to compete, you restrict her social interacting so she can never be out with another horse. You tell yourself that “next to” other horses is good enough but that’s not natural. Horse are herd animals. They live in herds. They don’t live solo lives where they can see other horses. They live with other horses.

Handwalking as a substitute for turnout is no more/less natural than saying “being able to see other horses” is a substitute for being with other horses.

If your horse could talk, she’d probably prefer a riskier, shorter, happier life turned out with others to jumping sticks for you and living where she can see but not run/play/fully interact with other horses.

Look we ALL make compromises when we care for horses. We ALL DO. I’m not saying your compromises are bad. I’m saying it’s hypocritcal to take a bright line stance over turnout but then turnaround and justify something that is also a compromise that prioritizes us over them. Your compromise and her compromise are BOTH COMPROMISES. All of us are trying to balance our needs with their needs. We strike different balances. That doesn’t make some people bad/evil because they strike a difference balance than you. You’re striking a balance too.

It’s pretty hypocritical to take the bright line stance that show horses don’t need to be turned out in groups but then turn around and castigate someone who takes the position that show horses don’t need turnout. Both are choices we make for US and not for them.

And not for nothing but some of the worst pasture accidents I’ve seen were horses turnout out solo that get themselves hurt trying to interact over the fence or went nuts when the horses next to them got brought in and they were left alone. So I am not sure solo turnout is objectively “safer.” That same injury that can’t withstand a kick probably wouldn’t cope well if the horse kicked through a fence trying to get at another horse.

[Djones]

Oh gosh yes. The uber fanciest place I know does only solo turnout. One day horse X was brought in while horse Y was still out. Horse Y could see 3-4 other horses but he still panicked and shoved a shattered fence board through his chest and almost to his heart. They literally sawed the end off of it to then trailer him to surgery…

[IPEsq]

There is at least one absolute truth on this thread, and that is that horses always have the capacity to hurt themselves, anytime, anywhere…

[Moneypitt]

How horses shaped NYC — and now thrive inside it in surprising ways

How much turn out did the NYC riding stables horses get pre 2007?

Anyone ride there?

[jvanrens]

@Djones

Abusive? Oh my…

Do carriage horses in CP get turned out? Do the touring Budweiser horses get turned out? Do rodeo horses on the circuit get turned out when you’re trying to hit 4 rodeos in a 3 day weekend? Are you marching on the Saddlebred barn down the road? The halter horses? The petting zoos?

Abusive?

Agreed most of those you mentioned don’t get turned out much when they’re on the show circuit. I can say that the Budweiser teams get turned out when there is turnout available. They were at Vernon Downs racetrack a few years back and were turned out in the paddocks there. My daughter sent me pictures. She also sent me some of them being brought in, I think it was 5 at a time by one person…

[clanter]

@vxf111

For the record I am both pro turnout and turnout in groups… but it amazes me that people who are ready to throw daggers at someone for not turning out can find ways to justify to themselves solo turnout.

I suspect those people are the same ones that will put a Saddle on a horse… never ever saw one born with a saddle but we sure break their well to make them wear one

[foursocks]

As I wrote above my younger horse can’t be out with other horses because he will hurt them and himself. He was always too rough in his play but a horrible barn owner turned him out with two other horses who she knew wouldn’t back down (she told me they were very mellow and wouldn’t engage with him) and there were serious injuries. After that he couldn’t even share a fenceline or he would kick it down and go after the other horses. I would LOVE it if he could go out with other horses because it can be hard finding a good boarding situation for a horse like him, but it is what it is. My other horse is Mr. Social and loves everyone he meets.

My problem child doesn’t seem to care even if he can’t see other horses. Sometimes he will hang out near the fence with horses in the field next to his, which is separated by a wide path so he can’t get at them, and they will all nap in the same area but he’s really pretty antisocial. He doesn’t care if he’s in the barn by himself, and he prefers to trailer alone. I have never known another horse like him.

[MsJump21]

While I definitely agree with you that horses should have access to turnout, I have to disagree that all horses should be turned out in groups. A lot of times horses are turned out individually for their safety or other horses. Here’s some examples of why turnout in groups is subjective:

I know one horse at a nearby barn that I am close to that was turned out in a group for a year and over that year managed to KILL 2 horses and MAIM another in turnout. This was also in a 5 acre pasture with a total of 4 horses. This horse needs to be turned out individually for the safety of other horses. He’s able to socialize over the fence but he cannot be turned out with any horse for their safety and his own.

Another example, my old horse needed to be turned individually since she was mean and bossy to other horses. She was a terrible boss mare and would keep other horses from going into the run in and managed to beat up several of the horses in her group. She would also attack horses that would try to eat any of the hay thrown into the pasture because she was aggressive towards other horses. The pasture she was in was at least 4 acres with a group of 6 horses. Again, it was for the other horses safety that she was turned out individually.

Turnout in groups is very SUBJECTIVE as it depends on the group of horses and their personalities because each personality is different and sometimes the choices for group turnout aren’t compatible so that’s also another reason for individual turnout. Every situation is different and it is widely varied. I believe horses should be turned out in groups if it is safe to do so but it is highly dependent on an individual’s situation.

[vxf111]

You’re making my point

[Bending_Line]

We have been turning out horses in mixed herds at our place for my 45+ years…really can’t think of any pasture accidents. We don’t allow hind shoes, and the horses are out about 18 hours a day, both of which help the accident stats. The frantic horses are the isolated horses, or the horses who do not get enough turn out per day and therefore are explosive. You also have to introduce new horses into the herd carefully. There can be a period of adjustment for the poor show horses who are not used to turn out because it affects them mentally and there is a form of PTSD, I believe, for a horse that has been inside and isolated too long. I do not believe that people without turn out should have horses, and I am also very skeptical/critical of the multi week shows with no turn out. I hope there is no one on here that thinks keeping a dog in solitary confinement and only letting it move on a leash is acceptable. We know it would be a human rights abuse for people. Not sure how we could think that it’s OK to treat a herd animal this way–especially where the excuse is the horse’s “value.” People without respect for the innate value of another living creature should not have ownership of one. People who are in horses for the perceived status symbol and unable to empathize with the horse’s basic needs and emotions are a grave disappointment to equestrianism and I’m glad this would-be influencer is being called out.

[Jenerationx]

I don’t think it’s ideal to keep horses in 24/7 aside from being ridden and hand walked from time to time. Yuck.

Also @NancyM that’s a very nice mare. Love her knees.

[Caligirl83]

@lenapesadie hits an important nail on the head. If you are in “turnout is the hill I die on” camp and your answer to this:

Blockquote
But should all the people in urban areas be barred from having horses? There are lots of horses living in pens with a few minutes of arena turn out here and there. Should all of those people no longer have a horse?

If your answer to this question is yes, people living in cities should not have horses… well, then don’t be surprised in the future when equestrian sports die and there’s no funding for local, regional or international horse events and your local trail becomes “bikers and hikers only” and the boarding stables and tack stores around you one by one disappear into housing developments, skateboard parks, and strip malls. If people in the cities don’t support , admire, and appreciate horses because they got a chance to take a summer camp or a string of lessons… then they won’t grow up with stars in their eyes to one day have a little farmette in the country or suburbs, they won’t be inspired to get off their phones or video games and admire and appreciate horses. Ever heard of Compton Cowboys in Los Angeles? There are similar groups in Chicago and other urban areas. Are you going to go to Compton and tell them they can’t have horses because they only have a riding arena to turn them out from?

Sorry but this all smacks of privilege. I repeat myself - if you live somewhere with access to turnout, you are lucky and privileged and live in a place with land . That’s not everybody’s reality. Stop criticizing others , whether a celebrity or not, that is not in your context.

(For the record I have 4 horses in pasture right now and one at horse show in a box stall. I am firmly in the turnout is important camp, but also in the don’t judge outside your context camp.)

[dags]

@Bending_Line

We don’t allow hind shoes

I think this is an important distinction in the group vs. single debate. Once you put hind shoes on them (again, usually for their benefit as we pursue our sport) it is not necessarily good practice to put them out together.

Other than that, there is an insane amount of hill-dying here. People dying on hills about other people dying on hills. Just let people have their hills.

[Caligirl83]

No hind shoes is helpful in group paddock/ pasture settings but no guarantee. The mare in my story below had no hind shoes:

Solo turnout for the kicker? WWYD?

@SugarCubes you made the right decision. Agree with everything everybody said above. We have a mare that killed my old 24yo stud who was gelded at 15. It was the most bizarre freak accident the vets had ever seen… and in 35+ years of keeping horses I’ve seen every kind of housing situation so I thought I understood horse behavior, I thought I had introduced them all slowly and gradually, I thought I understood the herd dynamics… but in hindsight I should have known better. It happened while I …

But yeah @dags I agree with you, there’s a lot of hills in this thread. Off to ride my pasture horses before heading to the horse show. Happy Saturday everybody.

[lenapesadie]

@dags

Other than that, there is an insane amount of hill-dying here. People dying on hills about other people dying on hills. Just let people have their hills.

Too right. I’m not dying on the general hill of all horses must get x turnout. Heck, we can’t even make sure all horses are getting enough to eat. Let’s start with that hill.

[lenapesadie]

@vxf111

It’s pretty hypocritical to take the bright line stance that show horses don’t need to be turned out in groups but then turn around and castigate someone who takes the position that show horses don’t need turnout. Both are choices we make for US and not for them.

100% agree

[TBKite]

I’ll take a stab at making a line between no turnout and no group turnout.

Much of animal welfare and environmental enrichment is related to the ability of an animal to express innate behaviours. Horses sharing a fence line, especially if they can touch, can engage in many social behaviours in spite of the fence. This is in addition to the behaviours they get to express just by virtue of being turned out at all.
It’s true that everything we do with horses is striking a balance between our needs and theirs. But there is a much bigger difference between no turnout and individual turnout than between individual and group turnout.

[SuzieQNutter]

We have 3 horses at home. They were all out together but my boy is submissive and gets bullied.

The day I saw him fall over because the other gelding looked at him and he went to get away too fast and fell over, I have put him in his own paddock. He can groom with them over the fence. They can nap together and he can get away when he wants.

At the Agistment I grew up on the horses were in individual paddocks and yards. Each one had their own shelter, it is not cold here so the shelters are for shade not warmth.

We had a stream of income from horses coming from herd turnout and were injured. One was chased and went down under a rail that was shorter than she was, so when she got up she broke her wither.

Another was chased into a deep dam and the other horse would not enter, but wouldn’t let the other horse out, by running around the dam to attack whenever it tried to exit. The horse was swimming for hours and nearly died of exhaustion.

Only 2 of the stories from the stream of injured horses that came to our place.

The people were so relieved to find a place where their horses were safe from other people’s horses and stayed at our place until they either moved location, got out of horses or bought their own place.

[h0rsel0ver]

@Caligirl83

Sorry but this all smacks of privilege. I repeat myself - if you live somewhere with access to turnout, you are lucky and privileged and live in a place with land . That’s not everybody’s reality. Stop criticizing others , whether a celebrity or not, that is not in your context.

Sorry, but the idea that discussing what practices should be acceptable for the health of living creatures, “smacks of privilege” is ridiculous. Can we tone down the histrionics? Also, equestrian supports get minimal funding already. That’s why it’s not as popular here in the states. Everyone here cares about the well-being of these animals that doesn’t come at the expense of our own entertainment - that’s something to be applauded. If that means they cast a critical eye over turn-out( training, riding, etc) practices every few years, that’s fine. It’s how we make progress.