Dani Waldman admits to never turning out horses

[Aussie_2020]

The problem I’ve encountered with turnout in boarding situations is the turn out space is rarely large enough. Ten horses in a 30 acre pasture will not have the problems that ten horses in a three acre pasture will. With more space the horses can actually create small herds, get away from bullies, and have enough room to gallop. In a tighter area they can’t blow off steam as safely, many horses that get turned out will have that initial spaz of play time.

I had 3 geldings that had lived together for years. Usually a small pasture but sometimes stalls with adjoining paddocks. When I put them on summer board at a place that was about 55 acres with trees and a pond they stuck together for several weeks. By month two each gelding had formed a small band of mares and lived separate from their former stall mates. After about 3 1/2 months I brought them to the barn I had built. It had a ten acre hay pasture they could use in the fall and winter, otherwise they went from their stall/paddock into a two acre dry lot each day. By the end very first day they were back into their old roles.

[Equkelly]

@Caligirl83

Sorry but this all smacks of privilege. I repeat myself - if you live somewhere with access to turnout, you are lucky and privileged and live in a place with land . That’s not everybody’s reality. Stop criticizing others , whether a celebrity or not, that is not in your context.

I’m sorry but horse ownership, IS a privilege, not a right.

[AffirmedHope]

Huge difference between having limited resources and doing the best you can and having paddocks and paddocks of useful turnout but not utilizing them for completely selfish reasons

[Nova2000]

@dags

Other than that, there is an insane amount of hill-dying here. People dying on hills about other people dying on hills. Just let people have their hills.

This gave me a good laugh

[anon68314200]

@scrbear11

I’m not sure why everyone is so up in arms over this. If you’re dumb enough to take her advice as a local-yocal-no-name, then it is what it is. You shouldn’t own a horse.

It’s really not that uncommon and quite “european” to not turn out

That is what has surprised me the most. Do folks REALLY not know that LOTS people do not turn out? I think they do know but they are just pouncing on a convenient target.

I have had horses living out 24/7 (who never went to a show or had a hard day that could remotely be blamed) their whole life get ulcers, horses get Lyme disease 48 hours after moving from some place without, to a part of the planet that HAS LYMES and they are put out in a field, horses that jump fences, pace fence lines chronically, etc, etc up to and including owners who are just nervous about restarting turnout with their precious beastie that has not been turned out in a decade.

Domestication comes with some trade offs. But horses ARE DOMESTICATED (successful for thousands of years) because they cope really well, and very often thrive fantastically, with the trade offs.

[anon68314200]

@Peggy

There are places in the US where extensive turnout is not feasible due to lack of land. And grass turnout is prohibitive due to limited water (rain and irrigation). Any boarding stable I’ve been at (ridden at or had a horse at) horses either got turned out by their owners while they were on the property or by barn workers on a pretty rigid schedule. You do have to be diligent about getting horses out every day.

Having seen what I think was the original post that prompted Dani’s response, IMHO it would have been more appropriate to suggest appropriate leg protection to use rather than to suggest avoiding the problem by not turning out.

Agree with most of this

[anon68314200]

@Caligirl83

Ahhhhhh I can’t figure out how to quote on my mobile phone, but in a nutshell yes to all the reasons above why turnout in coastal suburban or urban horse boarding facilities in southern California and the Bay Area is limited. At some facilities, the only place to turnout is the riding arena after hours which may or may not be allowed by barn policy.

I firmly believe in turnout. But I have worked at enough stables in a variety of geographical regions to not judge somebody else’s context. I’ve seen abused horses living in pastures or stalls, and well loved well cared for horses living in both extremes or a combo.

Frankly, if you have access to 24/7 turnout you are lucky and privileged, and live in a place with low property taxes or own/ lease a lot of land. That is rarely going to be coastal California or an urban boarding facility.

My two cents.

Precisely

[anon68314200]

@sportyspicepony

I truly don’t buy the idea that some horses hate turnout. Horses like wherever their food and friends are, and it’s as simple as that. If your horse is ready to jump the fence to come in whenever it gets turned out, it’s an issue with the turnout situation.

That is a big problem for you then. NOTHING is as simple as someone standing on the outside dictating what other people have to/should do. Horses temperaments vary as much as any other social mammal.

Dogs are social but it simply not doable for many dog owners to keep their dogs with them all day long. That would probably be what is best for the dogs. But that is a big NO folks.

[anon68314200]

@vxf111

My point is that a lot of this is VERY subjective. Things I don’t think are fair have worked for people for years. And vice versa. There are certain basic levels of horsemanship we all can agree on (food, shelter, water, safe handling, etc.) but beyond that it is VERY subjective.

It’s going to thunderstorm tonight. My home horse is going out with a run in shed. My neighbor’s horse is out without one. My boarded horse will be kept in. Who is right? Who is the better horseman? Every day we make decisions that other people wouldn’t make. It seems like a whole lot of ire directed at this Dani person is because she rubbed some people the wrong way (I only vaguely know who she is and don’t care. For those that so despise her, why let her occupy so much real estate in your head?). Because there are a LOT of top horseman (some about to be named to our international showjumping team, I suspect) who also never turn out (at least not in the traditional sense). That is how some people manage horses and do so very successfully. I don’t think it’s such a radical way to do things. Not how I would do it. But, again… I don’t walk in their shoes. And tonight… my home horses will get wet

Yup

[bingbingbing]

@Equkelly

@Caligirl83

Sorry but this all smacks of privilege. I repeat myself - if you live somewhere with access to turnout, you are lucky and privileged and live in a place with land . That’s not everybody’s reality. Stop criticizing others , whether a celebrity or not, that is not in your context.

I’m sorry but horse ownership, IS a privilege, not a right.

Thank you!

[RND]

People keep saying that Dani gave someone the advice to not turn out the horse, and maybe I missed a post of hers, but in the one I saw she was asked if she would wrap her horse after turn out, and she said she doesn’t turn out. I took her post as her saying “beats me, I don’t turn out” and not “I don’t turn my horses out and neither should you”.

[Equkelly]

@RND

People keep saying that Dani gave someone the advice to not turn out the horse, and maybe I missed a post of hers, but in the one I saw she was asked if she would wrap her horse after turn out, and she said she doesn’t turn out. I took her post as her saying “beats me, I don’t turn out” and not “I don’t turn my horses out and neither should you”.

Doesn’t make any difference IMO. Normalizing abusive/ unethical practices is the whole issue.

Danni probably doesn’t turn her horses out because that was a normal practice in her equestrian education. Everyone I know that doesn’t do turnout either rides or trained at a barn that also doesn’t do turnout. Now some people do the work and grow up and educate themselves but someone people don’t.

It’s just the circular logic fallacy…
“Why is that practice ok?”
“Because everyone does it!”
“Well then why does everyone do it?”
“Because the practice is ok!”

[Xanthoria]

@Caligirl83

Sorry but this all smacks of privilege. I repeat myself - if you live somewhere with access to turnout, you are lucky and privileged and live in a place with land . That’s not everybody’s reality. Stop criticizing others , whether a celebrity or not, that is not in your context.

It’s not privileged at all to say animals should be treated fairly and well. If horse riding was a basic human right then it’d be a different story.

If you can’t provide healthy food, water and shelter you shouldn’t own any animal - their needs as animals trump our need to use them for fun. Socioeconomic status is irrelevant to that.

[Xanthoria]

@dags

Other than that, there is an insane amount of hill-dying here. People dying on hills about other people dying on hills. Just let people have their hills.

Well at least they’re outside on a hill and not locked in a stall!

[lenapesadie]

@Xanthoria

Well at least they’re outside on a hill and not locked in a stall!

Funny lol

[Caligirl83]

@xanthoria @bingbingbing @Equkelly @h0rsel0ver Ok, yes of course it’s not a privilege to provide basic animal rights like “healthy food, water, and shelter.” That’s a right every animal (and human deserves). Please point out where I said otherwise.

@Xanthoria

@Caligirl83

Sorry but this all smacks of privilege. I repeat myself - if you live somewhere with access to turnout, you are lucky and privileged and live in a place with land . That’s not everybody’s reality. Stop criticizing others , whether a celebrity or not, that is not in your context.

It’s not privileged at all to say animals should be treated fairly and well. If horse riding was a basic human right then it’d be a different story.

I agree that “animals should be treated fairly and well” and I personally believe that turnout and ideally group turnout is important for mental health and physical health of horses, on average, as a group, since they are social herd mammals. I have access to pasture for my horses in Southern California and work hard to rotate non irrigated pasture so they have grass as much of the year as possible which is hard in our climate, and I consider myself privileged to both be a horse owner and to provide that life for my horses and the horses under my care. HOWEVER, across the world (cough Europe, cough urban American cities, cough coastal Southern California, etc) I have seen and worked in places where horses were kept without turnout or very limited turnout for part of their lives. I have seen some horses tolerate this well, and others not. I have seen some horses tolerate 24/7 pasture living well, and other horses not tolerate pasture life at all.

Animal control in the United States (or any country) will never respond to a phone call saying FEI horses are not being turned out enough, nor will USEF. Do I believe in letting horses live their “horsiest” life within the best of my logistical and financial abilities, as a horse caretaker and a responsible horse owner? Yes, a firm yes.

But y’all are completely missing my point that it is not right to judge contexts outside your own, and that Urban Horsekeeping and keeping horses happy on the FEI competition circuit is a thing. Oh well.

[Equkelly]

@Caligirl83

Ok, yes of course it’s not a privilege to provide basic animal rights like “healthy food, water, and shelter.” That’s a right every animal (and human deserves). Please point out where I said otherwise.

@Caligirl83

Sorry but this all smacks of privilege.

Right there.

@Caligirl83

Animal control in the United States (or any country) will never respond to a phone call saying FEI horses are not being turned out enough, nor will USEF.

What’s your point?

@Caligirl83

But y’all are completely missing my point that it is not right to judge contexts outside your own

Sure it is. Not everyone here owns a beautiful horse property with rolling green hills and acreage. I bust my ass doing self care at a boarding barn and I myself live in a 1BR apartment. I am privileged enough that I am able to work hard and own a horse though it’s definitely a stretch for me. If I couldn’t give my horse turnout, I would not have a horse. It would be the same if I couldn’t provide hay, or water, or vet care. I love my horse, and I love riding but I’m not entitled to it. I have to work very hard and make sacrifices in my life… I’m not going to force my horse to be the one making the sacrifices.

I just could not imagine being that selfish. There’s no excuse, nobody NEEDS a horse but horses do NEED turnout. How is this such a conundrum for some people?

[DollyDoll]

So just gonna put my two cents, fair warning I only briefly read some of the replies. But personally if I had the financial situation where I could turnout my houses I would 100% do it but I get the people who say they can’t because they don’t have the field/arena/etc. I live in the city and luckily my barn is also in the city. I used to be told constantly that horses didn’t need turnout, they get hurt, etc but everytime I had the chance I would stay until the very end of the day when the arena was empty and let loose my horse even if for 30 min or maybe an hour but constant turnout isn’t something I have the luxury. It really does depend on a persons circumstances sometimes whether they can give their horses turnout or not.

I do think Daniel is in the wrong, she has the money, field, and basically everything to give her horses that time, and injury in turnout is so rare at most you might get a scrape or maybe if its with other horses they might play bite or play a bit to aggressively, but when it comes to other people who don’t have the chance it can be really sad to hear that its ‘abuse’ or hurtful if you don’t turn them out especially if they don’t have the space to do it. I personally try to always give them something in their stall so that they don’t get bored and try to take them, even if it’s hand walking, out an hour a day besides regular riding since I don’t always have the chances to turn out. In the end, it really is different for every horse and rider combo especially if they live in different areas or it also depends on their barn/facility they board at.

[Caligirl83]

@Equkelly I said horses do not deserve healthy food, shelter and water? When? Where? I have never said that.

My understanding of what you & others are saying is that all horses deserve healthy food, shelter water, and 12-24 hrs of turnout (I believe this too). Is that correct?

When I speak of privilege, I include myself in that category. All of us who ride & compete horses are all privileged to ride horses, and should care for them to the best of our abilities and finances. BUT… I am not going to call animal control about Dani Waldmam or a local struggling urban riding academy catering to inner city kids because no turnout = abuse (two opposite sides of a spectrum) . I don’t think anybody on this forum would either. But that’s the slippery slope about where this conversation is heading, with a sport that is hard for new people to get into or even begin to understand if they’ve never even pet a horse. That’s why I keep mentioning context matters. But that’s just my opinion, take it or leave it. You’re entitled to yours.

[Horse_Rider]

I mean, I don’t consider a “24x24” pen to be good for anything other than a horse progressing through recovery from an injury, or a spot to turn your horse out for a roll while you clean his stall of some other short chore that will have you back out to grab your horse shortly.

I can not imagine how stifling it would feel if ALL my activity involved directed, controlled behavior by someone else. I would go mad. I hand graze my horse all the time and I let him pick and choose most of the spots he goes, but for MY safety, he can’t kick out, he can’t have a good buck, he can’t swing his head around too hard to bit a fly without running the risk of yanking me at the end of the rope. Hand grazing is US time and I use it to get him so good grass, so he enjoys it, but turn out is ME (horse) time. Big difference.

So, no, I don’t consider a 24x24 pen or multiple rides/hand walks/swims/hot walker/hand graze/free lunge time to be a full replacement for actual turnout. They’re band-aids and poor ones at that.