Dani Waldman admits to never turning out horses

[Alterration]

@anon510129

I agree. But if not turning out is a “solution” to any health issue, I’d say that person doesn’t know what they’re doing, or if they do, they’re actively doing a disservice to their horse.

I’ll tell my retired cushinoid guy with dsld that he should be out on acres with a herd to run around (Ok, now I AM joking, but he can’t be turned out on grass nor with a herd, nor is he really allowed to run around since his DSLD will get worse as a result)

In all seriousness - again, defining turnout is important too. Does it have to be 5 acres with a herd? Or can it be a smaller dry lot - usually around cities the latter is all that can be accomplished. Some people, like in saddlebred-land, use longing as a substitute, but they allow them to buck and play on the longe line, which is disallowed in sporthorse-land.

[beowulf]

Hold up – “his DSLD will get worse as a result” –

Is this a proven theory of thinking? I have always been told that the movement is better for them than standing around, as inflammation/discomfort is a main component of ESPA/DSLD.

Genuine question, since I’ve taken care of several DSLD/ESPA horses in my time. My vet always said it’s best for them to be out 24/7…

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

Exactly and I also think it’s cruel to leave a dog in a crate for 9 hours a day.

A horse with controlled exercise, a small outdoor paddock and a stall is not equivalent to a crate. It’s equivalent to a dog in a home.

And yes - most horse people I know sacrifice almost everything in order for their horses to have as much comfort as they can. There’s a reason why the memes about us having $30 shoes and the horse having $400 shoes is a meme.

You’ve got a real chip on your shoulder - good luck to you.

[Equkelly]

“Horse people aren’t selfish” said while arguing that that it’s A-OK not to turn your horses out just so you can have access to them.

Man, I know COTH can have a self awareness problem, but this one takes it.

Thankfully I still think the younger generation is going to try to do better than this so while this is common and acceptable now, hopefully it won’t be in 25 years. That’s all.

[Alterration]

Ooh - so, I oversimplified a bit - in his particular case, the cushings and the DSLD are intertwined. We originally dx dsld when he tore both hind suspensories (he wanted in, and was running the fence line at a boarding barn - both hind suspensories had lesions, possibly from before but we didn’t know it). He’s a quarter horse with fairly upright pasterns so I wasn’t expecting dsld (although I know it can happen, it still seemed really odd), so we did a challenge test and lo and behold cushings could be a cause or it could be the reason the lesions weren’t healing properly causing it to LOOK like dsld and not be dsld.

As a result - keeping his cushings in check and keeping his movement controlled means that the lesions stand a gnat’s chance in a hurricane of “staying away” (we also did PRP/Stem Cell + shockwave) since he’s already got weak points where the lesions were. But he needs controlled movement because he’s also arthritic, so he’s just a fine mess. It’s a ton of fun. It’s also somewhat sad because he wants to interact and work. He’s still first to the gate to come in, and requires at least coming out to hand walk and groom otherwise he gets super cranky. It’s his routine, and he is incredibly anxious without it.

[Alterration]

@Equkelly

“Horse people aren’t selfish” said while arguing that that it’s A-OK not to turn your horses out just so you can have access to them.

Man, I know COTH can have a self awareness problem, but this one takes it.

Thankfully I still think the younger generation is going to try to do better than this so while this is common and acceptable now, hopefully it won’t be in 25 years. That’s all.

Wow you missed the point by about 50 miles. My horses go out.

What you learn when you are exposed to the world for a long time is that things are not as clearly “right and wrong” as you thought they were when you were younger. But I’d urge you to take that chip off your shoulder because learning is a positive thing, and you can’t do it while your mouth is open running other people down.

[anon15718925]

So I haven’t read this whole thread lately, but I think I’ve seen a few points about mounted police horses not necessarily getting much turnout. The only mounted police unit whose stables I’ve seen personally (long story how that came about) are basically in downtown Indianapolis and their horses still have turnout in a pasture on-site. It’s not a glorious 40-acre pasture of rolling green hills and lush trees or anything and the construction has cut into the available pasture a bit (I visited in the winter so nothing was glorious rolling hills and green, lush foliage, lol), but they make it work.

So…actually yeah police horses do get turnout and they’re sometimes stabled in the middle of a big city (Indy might be a bit odd though, it’s a “big city” for Indiana but it’s also fairly sprawled out compared to major cities in other areas - I don’t know about mounted units in denser cities or what their turnout situations are).

EDIT TO ADD: I believe IMPD horses also get a “vacation” similar to what someone upthread said about the police horses, urban cowboy horses, etc. in Philadelphia. And I know IMPD has plans to build a new stable across from where the current one is b/c of the development happening on the chunk of land they’re currently on.

[Alterration]

@anon15718925

So…actually yeah police horses do get turnout and they’re sometimes stabled in the middle of a big city (Indy might be a bit odd though, it’s a “big city” for Indiana but it’s also fairly sprawled out compared to major cities in other areas - I don’t know about mounted units in denser cities or what their turnout situations are).

Indy is a little strange. I’ve been to a few different cities where they don’t have turnout - they do get vacations, yes - but not daily turnout as some of the more strident posters are insisting they must have otherwise it constitutes abuse. Obviously there are a million shades of gray in this situation which was what I was trying to indicate.

[sportyspicepony]

Not sure if anyone has posted this study yet but I just saw it on Twitter and wanted to share!!

Effect of Pen Size on Stress Responses of Stall-Housed Horses Receiving One...

Posted by the University of Minnesota Equine Extension Program: https://www.facebook.com/UMNHorse

• Turnout in a pen providing 342 m2 per horse reduced plasma cortisol after 15 minutes.

• Pens providing either 263 m2 or 184 m2 per horse had no effect on plasma cortisol.

• Turnout in a pen providing 342 m2 per horse reduced agonistic behaviors.

[vxf111]

Lots of people on this thread will ignore this (and the other study cited upthread) because although they want to die on the turnout hill, they will maintain their view that solo turnout is fine without recognizing that by that very distinction they are admitting that what constitutes proper horse care can be situation specific/subjective.

[Equkelly]

On a somewhat unrelated note… Idk if anyone saw, but she’s also being called out again for cultural appropriation. The black equestrians Instagram page said this: https://www.instagram.com/p/COwfIcbHHZk/?igshid=nhmefwe4ev64

[endlessclimb]

I love how the most vocal here are dodging this fact. Probably because they can’t now virtue signal if they’re guilty…

[endlessclimb]

@Equkelly

Man, I know COTH can have a self awareness problem, but this one takes it.

I’m dying laughing over here. Thanks!

[Alterration]

So 342 square meters per horse is 0.0842 acres, which is…not a lot of acreage per horse…12 per acre? Am I doing that math wrong? That study seems to indicate that small pens with a lot of horses in it stresses horses out, which seems somewhat less than shocking.

[Alterration]

This study: https://www.aqha.com/-/bone-strength-mass?fbclid=IwAR0S0JnZawmHbQnEmC9TJ_W-rtOPGnzbM0IhCsyx2048x8gd0zveICvLNDk - was listed above and I think it’s really fascinating. Speaking of bone mass, it’s the sprinting that is necessary, not meandering around with a bunch of elderly duds. It’s also interesting that they tested young horses (when the foundation for bone is being laid) and not older horses - seems like a worthwhile study.

So - if I read the study correctly, as far as bone is concerned, it seems like a few wind sprints on a galloping track will accomplish the goal. But horses on daily turnout don’t tend to sprint (once they are over a certain age), so they probably aren’t meeting that need. Interesting nonetheless.

This is a good summary study - https://essays.cve.edu.au/sites/default/files/Veronika%20Jendruch.pdf

It indicates (as most studies do) that more research should be done, but that the important part of the equine health is that the horses be able to socialize, which they can do with the appropriate design of stables, and that adequate exercise and grazing is necessary…which is…what was said.

[Alterration]

Here’s another study, indicating that feeding (or lack thereof) was the primary indicator of whether horses would develop oral and physical stereotypies. Admittedly, the data is from Malaysia, but I’m looking for a similar study from other countries https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S073708062030321X

The one thing that can happen with no turnout is that fitness is not maintained, and I found some studies to that effect. The one study disappointed me though, they did not make an equivalence between the distance traveled by non-exercised “pastured” horses and exercised horses in the distance that they covered. Again - this is not surprising based on what we know about fitness.

This study is surprising to me though, https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0737080620303889 it indicates that riding equines doesn’t actually cause them a ton of stress. I would have expected serum concentrations to me much higher and thus a need for “decompression” afterward - but it doesn’t seem that is a real big deal for them.

I also found some cool studies about a lack of connection between barometric pressure and colic A pleasant diversion for a rainy afternoon!

[mmeqcenter]

@vxf111

Lots of people on this thread will ignore this (and the other study cited upthread) because although they want to die on the turnout hill, they will maintain their view that solo turnout is fine without recognizing that by that very distinction they are admitting that what constitutes proper horse care can be situation specific/subjective.

Yes, it’s all subjective and situation specific. However, what is subjective is how much turn out (i.e. hours/day), amount of space available, etc. What is not subjective, is that horses as a species require “turn out,” period.

It’s no small wonder why studies suggest some 90% of race horses and 60% of sport horses have ulcers.
Many horses can seem “just fine” with their adaptation to life in a 12’x12’ box, but that does not mean they wouldn’t be happier/healthier with a different life, nor that it is morally acceptable to subject them to such a life.

I turn out in groups as much as possible, and think solo turnout is really dependent on the individual horse. However, there is a big difference between the moral issue around being outside by themselves (but can see and even touch other horses over the fence), and them sitting in a literal box 95% of their life.

The analogy to dogs in a crate for 9 hours a day was spot on, regarding space-size equivalent for much of their waking hours.

[beowulf]

@Alterration

So - if I read the study correctly, as far as bone is concerned, it seems like a few wind sprints on a galloping track will accomplish the goal. But horses on daily turnout don’t tend to sprint (once they are over a certain age), so they probably aren’t meeting that need. Interesting nonetheless.

I raise you my entire gelding gang.

Shenanigans start at around 5 AM EST. They continue until AM grain. At around dusk after PM grain, the party commences for about 45m with lots of hind leg walking and snorting.

In the gang of rabblerousers includes a 26 y/o QH, a 21 y/o TB, a war-horse stakes winner, a track flunkie, an STB with over 212 starts, and a QH who was so lazy he flunked from a lesson program. Most of them are teens but there are several aged involved.

They play like this this every day at least two times a day, rain or shine, winter or summer. I joke I never need to leg my gelding up after his winter break (Nov-Feb every year) because he’s plenty fit from the AM/PM parties.

There has been another study, granted in cattle IIRC, that showed that just a few minutes of galloping down the barn isle a few times a week was sufficient for improved remodeling. Horses don’t need much for that bone density, and the main take-away I remember from that article linked above is that turnout is good for a hell of a lot more than just bone density.

[Alterration]

@mmeqcenter

What is not subjective, is that horses as a species require “turn out,” period.

Actually - I think that is subjective. I’m looking for more research on that but it doesn’t seem to be bearing fruit. And I’m saying that as someone who DOES turns out horses. It appears that the stereotypies etc. all come from feeding issues (not frequent enough) and most of the exercise studies data don’t have true equivalencies in distance traveled/duration.

But let’s unpack the “moral” issue, because I think that’s truly at the heart of why some posters want to die on these hills. Morals in this context are interesting because we cannot, and should not, attribute human needs to horses. Not because they are lesser, but because their needs are different. (Caveat, not beyond the base level of food, shelter, water). For instance, I would hazard a guess based on what I know of prey animals that security weighs far more important in their Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs than does say, a wolf or a human. This would be why changes in routine can be comfortable for some people and flip a horse out something royally.

[beowulf]

@Alterration

. It appears that the stereotypies etc. all come from feeding issues (not frequent enough)

Sorry to double post – but there is literature on stereotypies also coming from isolation (ie stall time, controlled management, and/or single turnout). It is actually a main discussion point I remember being discussed in the studies I’ve read about equine stereotypies and their point of origin.