For what it’s worth (not much) the Philadelphia mounted police horses get turnout, and so do the carriage horses, the urban cowboys’ horses, and the city lesson horses. They make the most of the space they have. I know racehorses that get winter vacations.
18 Likes
45 years of experience in multiple states and countries has taught me otherwise.
Management issues related to how they are cared for - ulcers means not enough hay not consistently enough as well as a potential for stress in training or shipping. Nibble nets take care of that as does ensuring the horse is brought along well. Lots of show hunters won’t show signs of stress until they are super stressed because of good hunter breeding - doesn’t mean it’s not there though. Horses do like routine - one barn I know is full of ulcers because despite having turnout they constantly change where the horses go - they are stressed literally all the time.
Leg injuries can be related to not prepping them adequately for the work they do - many hunter/jumper people keep them overly fat and underwork and/or drill them, regardless of the pasture situation. (Dressage folks are particularly likely to do this…makes me nuts).
I wasn’t suggesting injuries were related to turnout, but instead saying - no discipline is “better” than any other for their “normal” standard of care. Which was my point.
But I AM sorry - tearing away from you is rude and dangerous. Best fix that before you get kicked. I’ve seen many broken bones and smashed up faces from that kind of behavior. I understood what you were trying to suggest as to why the behavior was occurring, it just isn’t the same as human concepts of freedom since it can be solved with a cookie given after removal of the halter. Of course if they are in the habit of ripping off retraining it takes slightly more than that, but it is a fairly simple fix.
5 Likes
Yes, usually in those situations the horses get vacations. I worked at a barn in the UK as a kid where the horses were in tie stalls all day, and got swapped out with another group of horses for the weekend and would be on pasture. All happy and healthy but definitely not the way we keep them in the US for the most part where land is plentiful.
But it isn’t daily turnout in a grass pasture.
I’m a big fan of 24/7 turnout, for the record, personally. I just refuse to crucify other horsemen for their choices. Everything is a trade off.
4 Likes
When I lived in Montevideo, Uruguay back in the early 1960s they were still using horse-drawn carts and wagons (and hearses) in the cities. I lived in Carrasco, a very upscale suburb of Montevideo back then. EVERY night the carters would turn their horses loose to forage throughout the suburb (most yards had walls or tall hedges.) They would also turn their horses loose the days they did not work.
This included at least one mare and her foal that would trot down the road in front of my bedroom window a few times a week.
Somehow I don’t think that most Americans would consent to this anywhere outside of open range out West.
12 Likes
Not when they rip out of the halter and ignore the cookie so they can run off.
4 Likes
That would be a hoot wouldn’t it? See them trotting down Broadway? 
I do think that would offend many American sensibilities. I suspect though that was to keep them fed for cheaper rather than allowing them all of the benefits of pasture time. Carters needed to be thrifty.
I think housekeeping practices around the world (and in past years) would surprise most Americans.
The one thing I can say with much certainty is that horses thrive when their food, exercise, veterinary, farriery, and social needs are met. Pasture is not the only way to do that. It does provide them with a way to get the first two, but people underestimate how much movement they require. If they have adequate work to make up for the lack of “free movement”, they do tend to be perfectly content. It’s when they don’t that there are problems. Similarly it can help with social needs, but so can bars between stalls where they can socialize.
4 Likes
I’ve had horses come in that do that. One particularly sullen dutch warmblood who had gotten in the habit of getting away from his amateur owners even on the longe line - built like a tank.
I use two solutions (I know you didn’t ask, but this is how I typically solve it). First, I use one peppermint PRE halter taking off, and one after. Give peppermint number one, and prior to halter removal, crinkle the wrapper. They aren’t dumb.
On a very confirmed and stubborn case (like the warmblood listed above), I’ve used two nose chains in addition to the mints. Mint 1, remove chain one. First chain removal caused the horse to think they needed to tank off, but the second one was there “surprise”! I’ve only had to do that a couple of times, and usually it was because the horse wasn’t the smartest cookie in the cookie drawer. Max days it has taken to deal with it is 3. Haven’t had it fail yet. Good to try before one gets kicked in the head.
15 Likes
@Alterration My guy is a 17.1 Dutch Warmblood, 28 years old, so he should know better! I admit I’ve been letting him get away with it lately.
This morning, did the 2-halter trick - rope halter under the leather one. He did get a surprise when those knots engaged! Lots of trying to take off when the top halter was only part way off. When he finally stood for the halter to come fully off, he tried to grab the cookie and dash off with it, but he forgot the rope halter was on! Had to go back in the barn for more cookies before lots of repeats until finally getting where I felt he almost had it down, so took the rope halter off first, then the leather one, and he stood long enough to get the cookie, then ran. It was a first step!
14 Likes
Nice job!! I know this is a total side conversation, but so so important. Try also giving him one when you catch him. My goal is to always be more interesting and pleasant to interact with than the rest of the world. Sometimes that involves a few bribes at first (sometimes many, depending on the personality of the horse). You can then make the bribes less and less important, but do still do it on occasion, thus reinforcing the behavior. 
Good luck!!!
1 Like
Thanks for the advice, but this horse has proven many things aren’t a simple fix 
And she doesn’t spin&buck, she’s not a kicker.
Chestnut mare from Baloubet bloodlines aren’t the simplest of creatures.
I also know how ulcers are caused. “Not enough hay constantly” could also mean access to grazing. Though, we all know that isn’t possible, even if your horse is turned out, doesn’t always mean grass. I was simply comparing two barns I had worked at. One got grass turn out & had less (possibly no) ulcers. Obviously we could go back and forth all day.
3 Likes
No horse is a simple creature, but they all do respond to operant conditioning. Some of them just require a few more iterations or a different schedule. But again - I do wish you good luck, I’m being sincere. It only takes one bad day to end up very injured, and the particular hill I’ll die on is staying safe
7 Likes
If the only way you can keep horses is to abuse them by denying them turnout, yea sorry you shouldn’t have horses. I’m not sure why this is so radical.
Nobody’s saying they should disappear but we are saying we need a shift in the way we prioritize turnout.
Do you know why horse people get attacked? It’s because people think we put our own selfish needs over our horses and honestly, some do. Why is it every time someone on here tries to have an honest discussion about equine welfare they’re seen as tree hugging, PETA nut job? It’s just depressing that some of you feel so attacked and defensive over TURNOUT.
11 Likes
Not always.
I have a mare who had free choice hay, all day turnout with another mare on pasture, and developed a perforating ulcer.
8 Likes
Since you used it as an argument that the lack of turnout caused issues, I was simply addressing that point. And yes, it can happen on grass as well (one of my. newest horses came with terrible ulcers because the grazing in his turnout was so poor - and “he had turnout so he only needed hay twice a day” was the management choice in question).
I’m not being snarky in any way - just in case it’s coming across that way - but it is important to note differences in management techniques in different types of horsekeeping and their influence on equine health.
6 Likes
Are you even serious right now?
You ARE echoing PETA’s statements.
Let’s give you an example from another creature. Dogs. Wolves evolved over a millennia to roam the large plains - I think it’s something like 30 miles per day. We’ve domesticated dogs, and thus, they need to be able to roam over 30 miles per day and it’s our pure selfishness that keeps them inside and not roaming.
Think I’m exaggerating? It IS an argument that PETA makes. And of course, we all know that if we were to turn our domesticated dogs loose…chaos would reign.
I’d urge you to rethink “selfishness” when it comes to horse people. Because if there’s one thing I know about horse people, we’re rarely selfish. The mistake we DO make is a mass amount of anthropomorphizing and that is difficult for people to understand. The other mistake we make is by judging each other.
13 Likes
True - there can be some alternate reasons for ulcers - I was oversimplifying the problem . I did mention though that there is a barn quite near me who did use pasture but re-did the pasture turnout “layout” every few days. That caused more than one ulceration case - too much stress every day.
I agree. But if not turning out is a “solution” to any health issue, I’d say that person doesn’t know what they’re doing, or if they do, they’re actively doing a disservice to their horse.
Again, if you want a perfectly healthy animal regardless your (g) view on turn out, you’d best pick a different sport. IMO, allowing a horse to be a horse at some point each day is giving you the best chance at a happy horse, at the very least.
5 Likes
Yup, same here. Had a horse 2 summers ago develop ulcers and this horse was on the “dream management” - group turnout, 24/7 roundbale and pasture access, friends, PSSM diet with high alfalfa/fat… But he contracted lyme, was painful, and I suspect the ulcers were secondary to his pain/lyme and the antibiotics sure didn’t help.
Ulcers are not always caused by lack of forage, although that’s a good contributing factor. Professionally, I see a lot of ulcers that are the result of other components of management like an unresolved pain issue, medication, or stalling time/isolation.
8 Likes
Exactly and I also think it’s cruel to leave a dog in a crate for 9 hours a day.
LMAO oh my god. Thanks for the laughs. Ok. Sure Jan.
9 Likes
