Daughter’s first IEA-debating whether this is healthy?

[TheDBYC]

IEA can be a mixed bag. The first one my 14yo rode in the coaches put her in a single flat class b/c she wasn’t used to the format. The class was one of the last of the day, and huuuuuge. To the point where they had to split it into two groups. Daughter rode very well but didn’t pin. A couple coaches who were not affiliated with our team expressed surprise to daughter & our coaches. I figured either the judges had either forgotten she was there during tabulation or thought that she was sandbagging being entered in that division. Fwiw, she pinned well enough in the next 2-3 shows to garner enough points for individual qualification for regionals.

At the second show, a good friend of hers had refusals out the whazoo over X rails, which was uncharacteristic for friend. Virtually every pair but daughter & her horse had a refusal on the judge’s line. From where I was seated, it appeared that dust was floating in the light from a skylight right where the pairs rounded the corner. Daughter by some miracle also somehow managed to get the sweet old horse with a sticky lead on one side due to arthritis to pick up the correct lead on that side on the first try. (Go figure ) Idk that it mattered b/c the judges had been briefed on the various horses’ limitations at the beginning. But I was proud

The horses are luck of the draw but the coaches (here at least) have some leeway to switch up pairings in order to address safety issues. The host barn also gives them an information packet at the beginning with specifics for each horse. One of our coaches was also a successful A circuit H/J coach in our area. She didn’t swap very many pairings. Her instincts were top notch for those she did switch, though. She’d obviously been paying close attention to the strengths & weaknesses of each rider in the practices.

My biggest quibble with the IEA format is that it’s just too damn long a day. Meaning even the most forgiving & generous saints of schooling horses start to lose their everloving minds halfway thru. (More sympathetic I could not be – I’m prone to losing my mind after one division at hunter shows ). I’d like to see 1) Juniors on one day, seniors on another 2) the most novice classes go earliest with the difficulty progressively advancing. That way, you don’t have some poor kid who had been taking one up/down lesson a week for 8 months piloting when poor Dobbin predictably & finally loses it & bucks a blue streak. Which is what happens now. Put the kids that are showing 3’ on the A circuit with their own horses on late in the day instead. At minimum, they can deal with it. At best, they can talk the horse down off the ledge.

I agree with the suggestions to both video the rides & to seek out lessons with another, unaffiliated coach. After watching a lot of IEA, my suggestion to your daughter is to treat it as if she were catch riding at show. How can she best 1) win the horse’s trust & enthusiasm 2) show that horse to best advantage in front of the judge? That way it becomes “what do I need to do to best show this solid schoolmaster with fantastic brakes to the judge?” Not “kick him on, kick him on, kick him on, OH FFS KICK HIM OOOOOOOON!!”

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

You know, folks here usually advise parents to check out different barns and different trainers to find the best place for their kids to take lessons. Different trainers have different teaching styles and not every trainer is for every kid. Folks usually emphasize how important this selection process is.

But then you find yourself in a situation like this, where your child wants to ride on an IEA team and there is only one team and one trainer in your area. And sometimes that trainer isn’t the best choice for your child. They didn’t have IEA when I was a kid, but I did ride on my university’s IHSA team in college. We had two trainers. One of them, under regular circumstances, I wouldn’t have ridden with if you had paid me. But, tough luck. If you want to be on the team, suck it up and ride with her.

I agree with everyone else who has suggested that, if it’s financially feasible, you look for another trainer that your daughter can ride with and just do the required IEA team practices with the IEA team coach. If it’s not financially feasible, then I think your daughter is just going to have to find her voice and speak up (during lessons, not at shows), asking for better explanations from her coach.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

@trubandloki

@Impractical_Horsewoman I love the first line of your post. I totally screamed “me too”.

Being last is just part of competing. It happens.

Yes, and the worst is when there are six ribbons and six people in the class! I do not want that green ribbon! I always wished they’d just give out four, so it wouldn’t be so clear I was dead last.

I understand about competition honing mental toughness, something as an adult I still don’t possess in abundance, TBH. But the “kick, kick, kick” thing really can be counterproductive and unhelpful in making a good rider. I am not knocking the IEA format, but instead of looking at ribbon placement, it might be worth the OP’s asking if taking private lessons without competing, until her daughter can get some confidence and joy in just riding might be helpful.

[CBoylen]

Actually coaching in a useful manner at an IEA show is really hard. Especially if the kids don’t ride with you on a regular basis. Your IEA coach at this point in the season probably has no idea if Suzie rider is just useless on everything or if that particular horse couldn’t be budged by a Mac truck. The timing of the showing I found made it difficult to give everybody anything other than quick and direct feedback, and I encouraged the kids to speak up after the show if they had any questions. But, frankly, actually fixing any issues was left to their home trainer if they weren’t “my” kids. I can say, work on your sitting trot at home, but cannot fix it during the course of one flat class unless one particular pointer miraculously unlocks it in a struggling kid. That happens occasionally, but not frequently. Mostly the show consists of pointing out the mistake and how it can be avoided next time, but there isn’t a chance to implement any real changes.
That being said, reading your post there’s no way to tell if the child is actually putting any effort in or not. There are many kids who will tell you they are doing something, when the reality is they did it for a 1/2 second and expected immediate and continuous results with no further effort.

[StormyDay]

Anything yelled at a rider from outside an arena during a show is too little, too late. I hate it when trainers do that.

I’d talk to the coach about different tactics to use to help your daughter.

Sometimes these things don’t get through quite right to the rider. For instance, in one of my riders saying ‘sit up’ did nothing. Instead I told her to get into a waterskiing position. That made her sit up in the correct way, and even though in another rider it might cause the feet to go too far forward, in this rider it made her sink into her heels more and sit up with her upper body.

So sometimes you need to change the language in order to get it through.

[poltroon]

@StormyDay

Sometimes these things don’t get through quite right to the rider. For instance, in one of my riders saying ‘sit up’ did nothing. Instead I told her to get into a waterskiing position. That made her sit up in the correct way, and even though in another rider it might cause the feet to go too far forward, in this rider it made her sink into her heels more and sit up with her upper body.

It’s pretty common with any kind of sport coaching that there’s an issue around the student having a false perception of where their body is. If you tell a student to “sit up” and they don’t it’s actually super common that the rider has no idea how to sit up more than they already are - that is - they already feel like their torso is vertical. So, if you think your torso is vertical and the instruction is “sit up” there’s literally nothing you can do with that and the instructor thinks the student is lazy and doesn’t care and the student is confused and the end result is just sadness.

Some ways around this would be to tell the student to lean back - way back past what they think is vertical, and tell them when they get to vertical. Same can be true for other situations. TAG teaching has some tools for this, but they’re not the only ones. They have an example around handstands, where gymnasts have to be taught what their bodies feel like when they are perfectly vertical, something that seems like it ought to be obvious but isn’t.

The key as an instructor is to recognize that part of what their job is is retraining the student’s neuroperception and not to blow off these situations as lying or laziness and instead to come up with some alternate task/description to get the rider in the position you want, as StormyDay did so effectively.

[Renn_aissance]

@BlueSunMare

My daughter said she was using more leg and was confused that her coach wasn’t seeing it. She said this has been a typical conflict between her and the coach-in that coach will tell her to do something and she really believes she is. But then coach wonders why she’s not and gets frustrated with her and just moves on. There’s no effort in creating a deeper understanding or another chance to try.

As other posters have mentioned, this is really common in all kinds of different sports- the coach says “Do this,” and the athlete really feels like they’re doing it, but they’re not producing the response that the coach wants.

In riding, sometimes this is because the rider is trying but the horse is tuned out; sometimes the rider thinks they’re trying but not enough; and sometimes the rider is trying, but not even every little bit of strength in a tiny little pipsqueak’s spaghetti legs is enough to convince Ol’ Bluey to move a little, so nothing happens.

What do your kid’s peers say about this trainer? Do other students and their parents also feel like the coaching is restricted to telling the student what to do, in the same way, repeatedly, and then getting frustrated if the student doesn’t produce the desired effect? (Ask the kids who seem to be successful at the shows and the ones who aren’t.) And, does your daughter feel this way in lessons on a regular basis, or does this only come out at horse shows? What do you see at lessons- does the coach encourage your daughter to think about the difference between “two ounces of pressure when you add leg,” “two pounds,” and “squeeze him like he’s a tube of toothpaste you’re squirting at your little brother”? Or do you observe the same thing your daughter says today, which is that the instruction is “leg! more leg! why aren’t you adding leg?”

She’s only done this one time- IEA can be nerve-wracking, between the pressure to do well for yourself, for your coach, and for your team, and the need to get on the horse and figure out how to ride it in the two minutes that you’re being judged. I’ve been involved with IEA for about 15 years (my sister competed; later, I schooled horses, staffed horse shows, and cat-herded the team) and I’ve watched a lot of young riders at home in practice and then away at shows on a horse they don’t know. Sometimes the kids get in their heads, freeze, and get so nervous that they lock their bodies and can’t relax enough to add leg. Sometimes they freeze and add too much leg and canter when they’re supposed to be trotting. Eventually, they learn the mental game and start riding as well away as they do at home. If the horse show seemed like a catalyst for these feelings, watch and wait, and pay attention to what’s going on in lessons.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Yelling as in projecting your voice… okay. Yelling as in scolding the child for not enough leg… nope. I come from the old school of dealing with trainers that yelled at you until they got what they wanted and even then, sometimes it wasn’t enough. They ruled in fear, bullying, and preyed on insecurity of tweens and teens.
Yell at people when they’re about to get run over by a bus. Yell at people when they’re not wearing a helmet on a horse and jumping a course of jumps. Yell at people when they think it’s ok to stand behind a spooky horse that is known to kick. All of those are totally ok bc the danger is immediate.
But as for the incessant berating, I’m personally not ever going to pay for that type of behavior ever again. Unfortunately, there are still many trainers out there that feel like that’s how they should get their point across and it’s sadly still socially acceptable in many arenas. I’m just sick of it and until I was away from it and realized I could still ride competently without someone belittling every small mistake, I thought it was the norm. It’s not.

[Scribbler]

I agree with you. Berating is useless. However I wasn’t sure berating was what was happening here, at least not on an ongoing basis.

[clanter]

The horses are luck of the draw

my wife and my kids were equation riders, I can not remember when the breed associations we rode in discontinued the horse swap during competitions but believe it was in the early or mid 1990s… the reason was a insurance liability issue.

In many states if not all a parent can not sign away the rights of a child in a wrongful injury

Personally I would not let one of our kids ride an unknown horse

If teaching teamwork is the desired outcome there are other methods

[MHM]

There are still shows where riders change horses for the test in equitation classes.

Most people learn to ride on a horse that is “unknown” to them when they start taking lessons for the first time.

In addition to providing the opportunity for kids to participate in a team sport, the IEA also is a way for riders to show without owning a horse.

[Pennywell_Bay]

@clanter

Personally I would not let one of our kids ride an unknown horse

I let mine ride unknown horses (to me) a lot, and I don’t consider me putting my kid at risk. I’m a life long rider, I ask the questions and watch the horse in person if it’s a truly unknown horse (like my kid catch rode 2 at a big show. One she rode and was fine, the other both the trainer and I vetoed it and the horse didn’t show at all due to behavior).

The horses in this program and tried and true lesson horses for the most part and is similar to taking your kid to a new barn for a Lesson.

My kid has gained A LOT by riding different horses. She’s got a few opportunities to show at BIG shows (at 13) as a catch rider. She also gets to hop on some friends’ horses/ponies and just loves it.

It’s great because she has been exposed to so many different styles of “coaching”, she’s learned to have a thick skin. It has taught her how to take direction from different people. An ammy talked her through riding a pony for her last weekend (in a non hunter show) and it was cool to see the kid take different information and style.

I’m not criticizing your style, just kind of giving a different parental view point.

[gertie06]

I’m not sure my soapbox will be particularly helpful to OP, but here I go…

This is my pet peeve with regards to coaching. When the trainer yells “more leg” and the kid doesn’t do it, despite thinking she’s doing it, and no further coaching ensues…well, let me draw a comparison.

Imagine you’re a senior in high school. You’re struggling in calculus. Your teacher yells, “Take the derivative!” Well, sadly, you don’t know how to do that properly. The teacher just keeps yelling, “Take the derivative!” and then gets mad at you and huffs off.

This is the exact same thing. If the coach can’t (or won’t) break down the proper leg position, pressure application, ideal body position, timing, etc to help this kid understand, then she’s inadequate as a teacher of beginner/intermediate riders.

[trubandloki]

@gertie06

I’m not sure my soapbox will be particularly helpful to OP, but here I go…

This is my pet peeve with regards to coaching. When the trainer yells “more leg” and the kid doesn’t do it, despite thinking she’s doing it, and no further coaching ensues…well, let me draw a comparison.

Imagine you’re a senior in high school. You’re struggling in calculus. Your teacher yells, “Take the derivative!” Well, sadly, you don’t know how to do that properly. The teacher just keeps yelling, “Take the derivative!” and then gets mad at you and huffs off.

This is the exact same thing. If the coach can’t (or won’t) break down the proper leg position, pressure application, ideal body position, timing, etc to help this kid understand, then she’s inadequate as a teacher of beginner/intermediate riders.

But it is not exactly the same thing. This happened at a show, not at a lesson.

[gertie06]

I get that, but did the coach then go address the issue in ensuing lessons? Anyways, my rant was more general than aimed at the OP. But I see this all the time and it gets me hot under the collar. I remember learning to ride 500 years ago, and my trainer hollering at me to change diagonals. I didn’t know what that meant, and I was too young and shy to ask for clarification, so I just guessed and tilted my body one way (perhaps a diagonal means I should post diagonally?). I must’ve bounced twice in the process because she approved. WTF am I talking about? I’m off on a total tangent.

Anyhoo, OP, most IEA riders I know have two coaches – the IEA coach, and their regular trainer. If this coach is defeating for your daughter, let her take regular lessons elsewhere outside of IEA. But I do agree with several other responders in that one show probably isn’t enough to judge by.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

Pretty sure the big eq finals still do a horse swap for the top 4?

Regardless, I grew up riding horses that were randomly assigned or drawn for us.
It taught me to handle whatever was thrown my way. In reality, yes, having your own horse gives you a better idea of what to expect… but horses are unpredictable and even the most docile creatures can become jackrabbits if exposed to the wrong scenario. Best to be able to navigate multiple instances with different personalities, body types, breeds, and training levels, so that you’re better prepared when the inevitable occurs.

[AllisonWunderlund]

Agree with the other posters saying your daughter may genuinely be thinking she is doing all the right things without really realizing how much more leg is sometimes needed, especially on the pokey middle school IEA draws I also agree that making a habit of videoing her rides will be very helpful. On my team parents often offer to video each other’s kids so that parents can watch (it really is hard to watch and video at the same time).

Another really useful tool that is unique to IEA/IHSA formats is the ability to watch OTHER riders ride the same horse to see how they do on it! Pay attention when the draw sheet are handed out - if your draw is being used in a class before yours make a point to watch it go and see how the other rider does.

We often have the same horses make appearances at multiple shows throughout the season, and many long time campaigners that come back year after year. I encourage my team to keep a notebook of all of the draws in our region with notes from the riders who draw them. It is helpful to read back on other riders’ experiences with that particular draw.

As my IHSA coach told me, “You don’t always have to be perfect, you just have to ride your draw better than anyone else!”

All that said, I am a little disturbed by some of the misinformation regarding IEA in this thread. Rather than hijack this topic I’ll be happy to start another one if anyone has any questions or want some clarification

Sincerely - a lowly IEA Region President

[trubandloki]

This thread made me think of some of very many beginner riding lessons I have watched over the years where the trainer says (for example) to kick the pony that will not move out of the middle and the kid appears to do nothing and the trainer says to kick the pony harder and the kid claims they are kicking when all of us standing there know their legs did not move an inch. When asked the kid proclaims they did not want to “kick” any harder because they did not want to hurt the pony.

[Tini_Sea_Soldier1]

There’s certainly that situation. I think we’ve all heard the whiny kid go “I’m tryyyyyiiinnnng”… but there’s also plenty of bully trainers out there that think bc pokey pony doesn’t respond, that kid isn’t working hard. It’s hard to gauge which one is happening here.

[CBoylen]

Blockquote[quote=“TheDBYC, post:21, topic:764189”]
The horses are luck of the draw but the coaches (here at least) have some leeway to switch up pairings in order to address safety issues. The host barn also gives them an information packet at the beginning with specifics for each horse. One of our coaches was also a successful A circuit H/J coach in our area. She didn’t swap very many pairings. Her instincts were top notch for those she did switch, though. She’d obviously been paying close attention to the strengths & weaknesses of each rider in the practices.
[/quote]
Um, we can’t do that here. I couldn’t even swap out a pairing for a kid that had a dangerous warmup. I spoke to the steward and the kid was required to go in for her class in order to qualify for a reride, or scratch completely. Kid understandably didn’t want to scratch, went in, jumped one jump and was run off with around the ring five times before being flung off into the fence. Could have been prevented if there was a rule in place letting me or the steward step in before the class for a safety concern.