De Gogue, Neck Stretcher, Humane Headsetter etc?

[2LaZ2race]

I’m a little nervous about posting this so please don’t flame me…

I have an older, very well trained horse who has been having some soreness problems that have been addressed by a qualified veterinarian. We’ve done some injections, time off, PMFM, chiro… anything he needs!.

My vet says we really need to work on making sure he doesn’t hallow his back in order to take the stress off his hind end. He’s had some pretty good dressage training so he understands this. However, he is used for lessons and many of his riders are still developing the skills to have a horse really life their back. She suggested a use a training device when he’s in a lesson like that to help.

I don’t let lesson kids use draw reins or anything like that, but he loves his job packing around kids and I want to keep him comfortable at the same time.

Is there a tool I can use that would be a compromise? Let him do his easy walk trot lessons but not put undo stress on his hind end?

[no.stirrups]

A couple of thoughts:
It’s common practice in Germany for kids to ride in side-reins for just the reasons you mention - it protects the horse while the rider is learning. People in the USA like to say it’s dangerous but it’s all about using the equipment correctly and having it adjusted properly.
I’ve known several stables that use running martingales on all their beginner lesson horses to stabilize the rein as the riders hands bounce up and down. The rings of the martingale protect the horse’s mouth from the excess movement.
Obviously you should also make sure his saddle is comfortable for him to lift his back into, not just a tolerable fit but a really good fit.

[2LaZ2race]

Than you for the thoughtful reply. He does have a special saddle (I’m a small program so all of the horses are my personal horses with their own fitted tack) and a thinline pad to help with bouncy kids.

A dressage trainer I know uses elastic side reins for the same reason but I know it’s sort of taboo (maybe it shouldn’t be?). He’s a very mellow guy and any device would be used only for his position, not for any type of control or behavior issues.

[Arlomine]

Of the options you mentioned, I would really stay away from what is called the “neck stretcher”. It’s a pet peeve of mine that it even has this name. They are pretty unrelenting, static, and keep the horses throat latch closed. Also, I would not use them for riding, especially with beginners, because the bottom portion attaches between the forelegs, and if the Horse gets its head low or plays around, it can get a get a leg through.

I would personally try a chambon, if the horse is well schooled to it, and it’s not tight. It allows the horse to open the throatlatch, and if you are doing any caveletti, won’t interfere with a correct bascule, which would be therapeutic.

I suppose long side reins wouldn’t be too bad, but I personally am hesitant to use them, especially at walk, or for the whole lesson.

[Equibrit]

He needs to be ridden/lunged correctly and regularly to strengthen his back muscles, or you’ll be fighting a losing battle. His lessons would be made easier with a suitable warmup beforehand. It’s not about “headset”.

[2LaZ2race]

Lunging before his lessons is an option. I understand it’s not just about headset and in a perfect world every horse would be ridden completely through, hind end engaged, back lifted, reaching for the contact, etc… That’s what I teach and that’s what I try to achieve when I ride but we’re not there yet. My goal is to assist him in staying comfortable so he can do what he enjoys. Honestly, he doesn’t like when I ride him as much as the kids (and yes I realize I make him work harder!).

[Equibrit]

@2LaZ2race

My goal is to assist him in staying comfortable so he can do what he enjoys.

In that case, it is your responsibility to keep his back in working order. There is a reason he is having problems.

[2LaZ2race]

Thank you for thinking on this for me.

[Equibrit]

Check this out; https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/equiband-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-work-739313

“The pair designed the Equiband system to be used specifically under the guidance of a vet or a licensed professional for horses that have recovered from colic surgery, have poor posture or have been diagnosed with conditions such as kissing spine. The product is also beneficial for horses with asymmetrical hind limb movement, poor engagement and poor development of major muscle groups.”

[Scribbler]

He is sore because he is being ridden incorrectly which is unavoidable with beginners. There’s no gear you can add that will compensate for that, unfortunately.

[Jealoushe]

No “tools” like this will make the horse use its back. Gimmicks just cause the fake headset, which will actually perpetuate the issues.

[sherian]

what about doing lessons on the lunge with him - can use the sidereins or equiband and will benefit the kids position greatly while he keeps in work.

[2LaZ2race]

I agree with your point. It’s very common to see horses in Kimberwicks or Pelhams with converters (if not harsher) for lesson programs around here. My guys go almost exclusively in happy mouth snaffles because the students are learning to have steady hands. The horse in question actually goes really well in a pure bitless bridle (not a hack).

[tohorse]

Not hollowing the back is achieved by engaged hindquarters - lowering the head can definitely help to achieve the roundness you’re looking for though is not strictly required. Many ways you can achieve the latter, but in many cases the real problem is in the hindquarters not in the head carriage. That part is often hard to do with beginner riders since the last thing they need is impulsion when learning how to sit a gait.
Side reins are typically used for unsteady hand, issues with contact though they can help with the head carriage and conditioning a horse. I certainly saw it practiced a lot in lesson barns in Europe with good results, especially on the lunge while vaulting or learning a proper seat. I don’t think there’s any harm in having beginners ride, especially in trot with side reins on off the lunge, but I’d suggest at least early you give lots of stretchy breaks for your horse while he has the conditioning.
There’s no real harm in riding in a chambon either, but IMO not many people do because there’s little incremental benefit relative to say just using a martingale (though I recognise they work differently).

[wsmoak]

I was taught that the de gogue can be used while riding.

I have used it in the past for a horse who wanted to fling his head up and rush, on the advice of an experienced trainer and coach, because I was not skilled enough to deal with this, and putting the horse in full training was not an option. Adjusted properly, the de gogue gave him a wide range of options, none of which included my face in contact with his neck.

I also lunged him in it and I believe it did help him use his whole body more correctly and build up the correct muscle memory so that he could do it on his own. I’d love to be the rider who can sit perfectly and produce this result with rein and leg aids but… I am still learning.

[173north]

How many days a week is he used in lessons? Using a training aid to encourage a “frame” while he’s being ridden by beginners sounds like it might ultimately do more harm than good - if they can’t engage his hindquarters and get him properly through his back, it might just encourage him to fake a frame.

Maybe lunging him a few times a week in a Pessoa or Equiband system would help - if he can strengthen his back and topline, the beginner lessons won’t be so tough on his body even if he does want to go around hollow.

[SuzieQNutter]

Our riding school uses German martingales. They help protect the horse’s mouths from beginner hands. They help protect the rider as the horse is not all strung out so more balanced.

They are only set loosely on the horses.

Riding with side reins is not recommended. The horse is getting 2 sets of signals on the bit.

[TheDBYC]

@Horselove5

It’s funny that aids are being viewed so negatively in the US when at the same time I’m seeing young kids (<14y) ride in all sort of harsh bits (including hackamore, which is prohibited by FEI)… and that’s with a respectable teacher!

I don’t disagree with your point re the bits, but in this case it is comparing apples to oranges. The issue with most all of these aids is that the horse’s spine is a self-supporting structure. And what goes up must come down, as so to speak. Any changes in alignment produced by mechanical means instead of by physical conditioning & therapeutic work are going to produce undesirable, injurious changes of alignment in other parts of the horse’s body to compensate.

Same with humans. Most knee issues begin as a result of dysfunctional (in this case contracted or restricted) movement patterning across the shoulder girdle. I’m very much against the use of any geegaw that forces a stretch. On a human or animal. A trainer once wanted me to get one of those shoulder posture harnesses for my kid. “Absolutely not,” was my reply. Along with a link to an article explaining the dangers of such a device by an orthopedic surgeon I know. The horse needs 1) more training/conditioning rides with an advanced rider 2) more newbies riding on the lunge line, or 3) teaching fewer newbie lessons altogether.

[2LaZ2race]

He’s used about 3-4 days a week in lessons. One of them might just be walking, another may be walking with some trotting on the long side, and maybe one with a kid that can trot independently as well as trot caviletties. The lessons are only about 35-45 mins long as tacking and horse care are part of the lesson “hour”.

[Arlomine]

No, I mean the chambon.
The DeGogue is designed to be used while riding, but the chambon does not Interfere with riding, and the rider’s hands are not connected to the devise, which may be a plus in this situation.
It would even be possible to have the rider use reins attached to the nose band, and the bit attached to the chambon, if one were creatively inclined.