Dealing with Refusals

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=CHT;7625280]
He is a former reiner? he may not have done much jumping wise, but reining is very hard on their joints! I would not at all be surprised if he had some issues going on there.[/QUOTE]

This. I had a pony was back who had a stop. Turns out it was hocks. Injections worked wonders. From the pic, and it’s hard to tell, his left leg looks like it is not tracking straight, moving to the inside more, which can be indicative of hock soreness. A video would help, get his nose out of his chest and have a good working canter. Remember the nice loping hack canter is not going to always get you the impulsiveness to the jump.

Also consider having someone with more experience get on him at shows. He may just need a more confident ride until he’s in the swing of showing.

[asterix]

Your vet won’t/doesn’t know how to do flexions?
Not sure what the point is of having him look at your horse. Hock pain can cause back pain, which can be easily found on palpation. Perhaps he can do that.

I agree with others - if it is not nerves/anxiety at a show (yours or his - either can be ruled out with a different rider), then it is pain. Reining is really, really hard on them.

[Pennywell_Bay]

OP has posted before her vet isn’t an “equine” vet, but I venture that if she is in an area hosting shows, there’s an equine vet around. She may have to ask around. In my area, my “regular” vet is a “large animal” vet, not specializing in horses, won’t do injections of hocks. After talking to some other stables , there is a mobile equine vet. I also found a great clinic about 40 minutes from me that is my “go to”. OP is very young so may not have that breadth if knowledge yet so reaching out, asking or getting online and looking for clinics may help.

[vxf111]

Sorry but what is the point in calling a vet you think is useless?! How will that give you any answers if the problem is physical?!

There are many good equine vets in the Atlanta area that travel. If you can travel for a show… You can’t travel for a vet that knows what flexions are?!

[Pennywell_Bay]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7625551]

There are many good equine vets in the Atlanta area that travel. If you can travel for a show… You can’t travel for a vet that knows what flexions are?![/QUOTE]

Where’s the “love” button?

[Ponyplusaninch]

If you need a few Atl vet recs, I’m happy to give them via PM. I do think it’s worth checking his hocks and back. Some horses are way more stoic than others (kinda like people lol) when it comes to pain/discomfort. He may be tolerating it on the flat but then o/f is where enough’s enough–especially if he was going as willingly as he was before.

If it’s pilot error, which is also a good possibility, is there someone else you’d trust to hop on him so you can watch? Sometimes we develop nervous ticks, even if we don’t feel nervous, that affect our horses. I’ve found that having someone else on the horse does two things: 1) confirm whether or not it’s pilot error 2) regardless of whether it is or isn’t, I can get someone else’s feedback on what they’re feeling as well as watching what the horse is doing so I can plan my game better for next time.

Just my two cents; he’s a cute fella!

[vxf111]

I can also recommend some Atlanta area vets if you tell me the specific areas that you can go to/where you are.

[goldponies]

He looks like a Reiner, he’s really on his forehand and hocks are way out behind. Do you use a different saddle to jump in? I have a retired Reiner and he started something similar and it was his hocks. Stop jumping and just hack for a couple weeks and see if that helps.

[Donkerbruin]

@Pony+ an inch;7625583

If it’s pilot error, which is also a good possibility, is there someone else you’d trust to hop on him so you can watch? Sometimes we develop nervous ticks, even if we don’t feel nervous, that affect our horses. I’ve found that having someone else on the horse does two things: 1) confirm whether or not it’s pilot error 2) regardless of whether it is or isn’t, I can get someone else’s feedback on what they’re feeling as well as watching what the horse is doing so I can plan my game better for next time.

This is what I was thinking. Is it possible you have some show nerves going on? Horses can pick up on nervousness and it makes them a lot less willing.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7625551]
Sorry but what is the point in calling a vet you think is useless?! How will that give you any answers if the problem is physical?!

There are many good equine vets in the Atlanta area that travel. If you can travel for a show… You can’t travel for a vet that knows what flexions are?![/QUOTE]

The vet is coming tomorrow because one of our horses has a cough and a weepy eye. He can help with that sort of stuff.

Atlanta is a 4 hour haul. The show was 30 minutes away. I’m not sure the point in taking him to the vet if he’s not sore…

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=asterix;7625498]
Your vet won’t/doesn’t know how to do flexions?
Not sure what the point is of having him look at your horse. Hock pain can cause back pain, which can be easily found on palpation. Perhaps he can do that.

I agree with others - if it is not nerves/anxiety at a show (yours or his - either can be ruled out with a different rider), then it is pain. Reining is really, really hard on them.[/QUOTE]

The vet is coming because of another horse’s cough. I thought I could maybe have him look at my horse and see what he says.

The thing is, it’s not just at shows. It’s even at schooling other places. The common theme with refusals is when I don’t wear spurs, so I think that could be a factor.

[PonyPenny]

I am wondering if he just doesn’t want to do this job. He is a reiner, built downhill with a short, stocky build. I would be amazed if he made the strides at all. He sure is cute, but is not built to be a hunter. He is probably frustrated with doing a job that is physically hard on him. Another thing is maybe your saddle is riding up on his shoulders. He may be mutton withered and with jumping, your weight, plus the saddle may be pushing forward onto his shoulders. If you ever watch reiners ride they sit back with there legs out in front of them. Totally opposite of the position you want to ride over fences. Do you have any videos of him jumping even at home? I am curious to see how he carries himself.

If he was mine, I would either take up reining or western riding, or sell him to someone who wants to do those things. I would then buy something physically able to do the job you want him to do. It would be less frustrating to you to have a more willing partner.

I am not criticizing the horse. He looks darling. Just like many of the horses the resident reining trainer at the stable I ride at look like. I have never seen a horse built like that have any success in the hunter ring. Even if you watch the hunter rounds at the AQHA World Show on Youtube. None of the horses are built like that.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=PonyPenny;7625783]
I am wondering if he just doesn’t want to do this job. He is a reiner, built downhill with a short, stocky build. I would be amazed if he made the strides at all. He sure is cute, but is not built to be a hunter. He is probably frustrated with doing a job that is physically hard on him. Another thing is maybe your saddle is riding up on his shoulders. He may be mutton withered and with jumping, your weight, plus the saddle may be pushing forward onto his shoulders. If you ever watch reiners ride they sit back with there legs out in front of them. Totally opposite of the position you want to ride over fences. Do you have any videos of him jumping even at home? I am curious to see how he carries himself.

If he was mine, I would either take up reining or western riding, or sell him to someone who wants to do those things. I would then buy something physically able to do the job you want him to do. It would be less frustrating to you to have a more willing partner.

I am not criticizing the horse. He looks darling. Just like many of the horses the resident reining trainer at the stable I ride at look like. I have never seen a horse built like that have any success in the hunter ring. Even if you watch the hunter rounds at the AQHA World Show on Youtube. None of the horses are built like that.[/QUOTE]

But he’s always been fine with jumping before now. I can post some video of him doing a course in just a minute. He carries himself long, low, and on the forehand. I can’t get him off of it.

I am never, ever selling him. I’ve had him 11 years and he is my heart horse. I am supposed to go to Ocala on Wednesday to look at some hunters, because I know deep down that he’ll never be competitive. I used to rein on him, so I know how to ride him western and how the body position differs. We actually just won a reining championship in February.

He is darling, and I would do anything in the world for him.

[hj0519]

[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7625761]

Atlanta is a 4 hour haul. The show was 30 minutes away. I’m not sure the point in taking him to the vet if he’s not sore…[/QUOTE]

Just because he’s not lame doesn’t mean that he’s not sore or hurting somewhere. The point is to catch it now and do something about it before it gets bad enough that he is lame. If he’s always been fine jumping until now, then obviously something has changed. From personal experience with horses that have suddenly developed problems with refusals due to soreness, I’d vote for front feet and/or hock pain as the potential issue.

[vxf111]

The vet coming out already is irrelevant. You ought to rule out pain. The vet, by your description, lacks the ability to do so. So, in other words, you will not rule out pain. Call a spade a spade. If you share your location I bet you $100 we can find a proper equine vet in a reasonable distance. Its not that there are no options… Its that you don’t care to look.

[vxf111]

You can go to Ocala to look at new horses but not get yours seen by a competant one?! Okay, well we all have different priorities…

[kookicat]

He’s sore somewhere. I’d lay money on it. Horses don’t just start refusing for no reason. Does he flinch or duck away if you run your fingers down his back?

[Jealoushe]

Do you have a coach?

[Ammy_Owner]

The horse needs to see a vet, if you can get yourself to Ocala to look at new horses then you can get him to a vet, maybe take him with you? There are tons of vets in Ocala…

Or retire him and continue on with the new horse you are getting, either way he is telling you he hurts or he is burned out. If you want to continue showing then get him to a vet.

[findeight]

[QUOTE=CHT;7625280]
He is a former reiner? he may not have done much jumping wise, but reining is very hard on their joints! I would not at all be surprised if he had some issues going on there.[/QUOTE]

Hey, I still have friends in Reining and Working Cow Horse/NRCHA (Snaffle Bit Futurity top 5 twice). They inject as the horses age and pack on miles. Rocking back to slide or spin may not be exactly the same movement but stress on the joints is there same as rocking back to jump. Pretty much the same diagnostics and treatment you see in good H/J barns including ultrasound, MRIs, Shock Wave etc. Some think stock horse types are less likely to get the suspensory injuries…not so. These sophisticated diagnostics are revealing they sure do.

I would also caution against trying to school jumps on him tomorrow. Give it a few days and see how he flexes for the vet. Even if he seems OK, mentally he may be over all the drilling over tiny, boring fences and too much arena work in general- at his age, maybe he does not need 5-6 days a week???. Maybe it’s time to back off instead of press harder. IIRC he is built downhill which means he has to work harder to jump ( and Rein too, the don’t want downhill over there either because it’s hard on the horse).

One other thing, might be you are conveying the stress in your life to him. I know I had a few uncharacteristically bad performances when I lost my Mom. Not that bad performances are that unusual for me:cool:. It was why they were bad-stops and indecision. I’d get there long and take my leg off or bury him and drop contact. Course the horse got pissed and eventually, just said no and stopped.

Then I’d wallow in the old “OMG I am not going to get anything and it means so much right now”…we have all done that and learned that kind of subliminal thinking sabotages us even when we don’t realize that thought is there.

Think about it. Been a lot if hell in your life lately, things that have to be in the back of your mind 24/7 whether you realize it or not.