Dealing with Refusals

[chestnuthunter]

I took my horse to a small jumper show yesterday, a facility he had been to and jumped at previously, and he ran out of and refused fences multiple times. I took him in an 18" crossrail class, and he ran out of the first fence. I got him over it and he completed the rest of the course, but then when I tried to take him over a 2’0" vertical it was a disaster. I’m sure it’s rider error, and I’ll try to post video from the show.

At home, he never refuses and we comfortably school 2’6" to 2’9". But lately, whenever I take him somewhere else, he starts refusing. I can eventually force him over it, but it’s dangerous and I don’t want him to develop a habit of it.

What are some things I can do to stop this? I let him have today off, but tomorrow I’m going to start back schooling him daily. I was thinking of working him over trot poles with a small fence at the end of the poles, then grids, gymnastics, etc.

This is so unusual for him and it just came out of the blue. I’ve never had an issue with him doing this before. I’m really hoping it was just a one-time thing.

ETA: I started this guy over fences myself and I’m pretty much the only rider he knows. He’s a 13 year-old former reiner.

[karasha]

What kind of stop is he doing? Is he doing the “come up to the jump, stop, drop shoulder, and go past it?” or the “drive-by”?

I had two refusals this weekend on my horse. One was on a hunter course and he didn’t have his lead, which made him think he could become a cow. Another was in a jumper course and he just gave me the middle finger to backing up making the turn. So, both technically were “Drive-bys”.

I refused to let him get past the jump. I pulley reined him, backed him, went back IN FRONT of the jump, and went RIGHT back to it. Went up to the fence with crop in one hand and spur on just to drive the point home. I laid the crop (didn’t smack, but just rested it on his flank) on him before the jump to back up my leg.

It was a successful schooling show because these little mistakes did not happen again in the following rounds. It’s the beauty of schooling shows… I have zero problems “training” in the ring.

Leg > Voice > Spur > Crop – the scale aids. Blow out my leg? I will cluck at you. Still don’t care? You get a nice bump in spur. Still acting like a belligerent idiot? You will sober up quick with a crop.

Otherwise, I widen my hands to essentially make a chute, get into a driving (full contact seat), and lots and lots of leg.

[PonyPenny]

Either he is in pain or he has your number. Horses don’t just wake up and decide they are not going to jump, especially at the height you are jumping. I had a trainer once that said you must have the mind set that the horse is either going over the jump or through it. Stopping is never an option unless the horse is in pain.

[chestnuthunter]

@karasha;7624919

What kind of stop is he doing? Is he doing the “come up to the jump, stop, drop shoulder, and go past it?” or the “drive-by”?

He’s doing several different kinds of stops. Sometimes he will go right up to it, then drop his shoulder, spin, and run. Other times he skids to a halt right before it. On one oxer, he refused to even go closer than about 5 strides out.

I will force him to it, but then he stops and/or plows through it. I can eventually get him over, but it’s not pretty.

[IrishDeclan]

I agree with PonyPenny. Either he’s hurting somewhere or has just decided it’s ok to ignore you. If you’ve ruled out pain as the cause then it’s time to start looking at training issues. It sounds like he’s maybe not being honest to your aids. You must first ensure that he understands the basic aids and then responds to them. He must go forward, come back, and yield to your leg when you ask him to. Sometimes being at a show can make these issues worse because they are in a new environment and there is more to distract the horse. It could also be that if you’re schooling 2’9" at home and only showing him at 18" he could simply just be bored out of his gourd and being naughty to entertain himself.

What is your typical training schedule? How many days a week do you flat your horse vs. jump him? Are your flat schools just w/t/c in both directions or do you incorporate some elements of dressage?

[serendipityhunter]

My old horse did this at shows, turned out he had moon blindness. I would have his eyes checked at the same time you look into physical issues. Mine was always fine at home too.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=IrishDeclan;7625154]
I agree with PonyPenny. Either he’s hurting somewhere or has just decided it’s ok to ignore you. If you’ve ruled out pain as the cause then it’s time to start looking at training issues. It sounds like he’s maybe not being honest to your aids. You must first ensure that he understands the basic aids and then responds to them. He must go forward, come back, and yield to your leg when you ask him to. Sometimes being at a show can make these issues worse because they are in a new environment and there is more to distract the horse. It could also be that if you’re schooling 2’9" at home and only showing him at 18" he could simply just be bored out of his gourd and being naughty to entertain himself.

What is your typical training schedule? How many days a week do you flat your horse vs. jump him? Are your flat schools just w/t/c in both directions or do you incorporate some elements of dressage?[/QUOTE]

He doesn’t appear to be in pain at all. No back soreness, totally sound.

Usually, he is so sweet and honest. I think he’s either burned out, or afraid to jump in new environments. I am going to go back to basics and start with cross rails and trot poles.

I usually flat him 4 days a week, and jump 2. On the flat days I usually do at least trot poles, though.

I show training level dressage, so we school of those movements. He’s very responsive to my aids, and has no problem moving beautifully and listening to me on the flat.

I don’t think he’s bored, because if that were the case I think he would have jumped the 2’0" vertical fine, but he refused that too. It took a lot of work to get him past that.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=serendipityhunter;7625161]
My old horse did this at shows, turned out he had moon blindness. I would have his eyes checked at the same time you look into physical issues. Mine was always fine at home too.[/QUOTE]

The vet comes out Tuesday, so I can have him checked over.

[WWGeorgeMorrisD]

This horse used to jump willingly? My bet is hocks, back, or front feet. How old? How much has he done? He could just be needing some maintenance. I have never seen one refuse at such small heights unless it was pain related. That is how we knew when Angel first started needing hock injections. She’d suddenly try to stop or run out of even small stuff. I do not think a well trained horse puts up a fuss at tiny jumps for no good reason.

[EmJ628]

I am working with a green older horse too. One thing I have really had to work on myself is my tendency to do the “Hunter hover”. This horse really needs my butt in the tack and to truly be in front of my leg, or he is not confident to the jumps. I had to be very honest with myself about my riding habits and I especially have to watch it at shows or new environments bc I tend to want to pinch with my knee and be up off his back= more weight over his shoulder= sliding stops or run outs. The second I sit back, put my calf on and ride confidently to the other side, he is brave, fun and has zero issues. Check physical issues certainly but it may be a case of your riding changing even in small ways at shows.

[PonyPenny]

[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7625175]
He doesn’t appear to be in pain at all. No back soreness, totally sound.

Usually, he is so sweet and honest. I think he’s either burned out, or afraid to jump in new environments. I am going to go back to basics and start with cross rails and trot poles.

I usually flat him 4 days a week, and jump 2. On the flat days I usually do at least trot poles, though.

I show training level dressage, so we school of those movements. He’s very responsive to my aids, and has no problem moving beautifully and listening to me on the flat.

I don’t think he’s bored, because if that were the case I think he would have jumped the 2’0" vertical fine, but he refused that too. It took a lot of work to get him past that.[/QUOTE]

Have someone more competent ride him at the show. If he goes well with that person, then you are the problem. He is not afraid at the show. He is either in pain or lacks faith in you to get the job done. You are probably nervous and the horse senses this. Why should he jump if you are not confident? Remember stopping is not any option. Make him jump from the base if he stops. There is no reason at that height he can’t jump or step over from a stand still. You have to have the mindset that he is going over the jump no matter what.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=WWGeorgeMorrisD;7625203]
This horse used to jump willingly? My bet is hocks, back, or front feet. How old? How much has he done? He could just be needing some maintenance. I have never seen one refuse at such small heights unless it was pain related. That is how we knew when Angel first started needing hock injections. She’d suddenly try to stop or run out of even small stuff. I do not think a well trained horse puts up a fuss at tiny jumps for no good reason.[/QUOTE]

Maybe. He’s 13. He hasn’t done much…I just started him over fences 2 years ago, so there hasn’t been too much wear and tear on his legs. It could be pain related, but he’s totally sound. Our vet knows nothing, so I’d have to haul him 3 hours to the vet clinic to get his hocks/feet checked.

He did refuse an 18" cross rail. He could have trotted or walked over it, but instead he ran out. However, he took it the second time and did the rest of the course.

I would like to think it is pain related. That would at least give me some answers.

[DoubleTwistedWire]

[QUOTE=EmJ628;7625219]
I am working with a green older horse too. One thing I have really had to work on myself is my tendency to do the “Hunter hover”. This horse really needs my butt in the tack and to truly be in front of my leg, or he is not confident to the jumps. I had to be very honest with myself about my riding habits and I especially have to watch it at shows or new environments[/QUOTE]

If the vet is coming out anyway, yes, I’d have them do a once-over and some flexions to rule out any pain issues. But I would suspect Pilot Error, as frankly that’s the most frequent cause of stops and run outs. How were you riding to the first fence? Were you just assuming he’d go because you’re schooling “bigger” and “scarier” stuff at home? Don’t give him that chance; ride every step the way you would a dressage test. Of course a clever horse is going to try to get out of work if they feel like they can, and if he thinks you’re up there reciting your course and looking around and not piloting him to the fence, he’s going to take advantage.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=PonyPenny;7625235]
Have someone more competent ride him at the show. If he goes well with that person, then you are the problem. He is not afraid at the show. He is either in pain or lacks faith in you to get the job done. You are probably nervous and the horse senses this. Why should he jump if you are not confident? Remember stopping is not any option. Make him jump from the base if he stops. There is no reason at that height he can’t jump or step over from a stand still. You have to have the mindset that he is going over the jump no matter what.[/QUOTE]

I could try that, but I’ve shown him several times over fences and there’s never been an issue. He has refused with my trainer in the past, and the trainer could not get him over the fence in question. He had to retire and leave the ring. This was back in October.

I can’t understand why he would lack the faith in me to do the tiny cross rail, that we’ve done a million times in that very arena. I have and will make him jump from the base, but sometimes he just won’t listen and dives out.

I know I probably just need to be braver and force him over, but he never needed that before. At the last show, he actually got excited and started charging the jumps.

[paw]

“Charging the jumps” is not necessarily excited (as in happy to jump). It can be an evasion as well.

How is he at home? Does he seem happy jumping? It might be that jumping fences at a show just Isn’t His Thing.

[CHT]

He is a former reiner? he may not have done much jumping wise, but reining is very hard on their joints! I would not at all be surprised if he had some issues going on there.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=DoubleTwistedWire;7625242]
If the vet is coming out anyway, yes, I’d have them do a once-over and some flexions to rule out any pain issues. But I would suspect Pilot Error, as frankly that’s the most frequent cause of stops and run outs. How were you riding to the first fence? Were you just assuming he’d go because you’re schooling “bigger” and “scarier” stuff at home? Don’t give him that chance; ride every step the way you would a dressage test. Of course a clever horse is going to try to get out of work if they feel like they can, and if he thinks you’re up there reciting your course and looking around and not piloting him to the fence, he’s going to take advantage.[/QUOTE]

I’d like to see the look on my vet’s face when I ask for flexions. He’s more of a general farm animal type vet…we don’t really have an experienced equine vet 'round here. I’d have to haul to Tallahassee to really get answers.

He is very, very clever. I was expecting him to run out, since he’s made a habit of it lately, so I tried to ride him forward and pilot him straight to the fence.

[RugBug]

[QUOTE=chestnuthunter;7625239]
Maybe. He’s 13. He hasn’t done much…I just started him over fences 2 years ago, so there hasn’t been too much wear and tear on his legs.[/QUOTE]

From what I remember of some of your videos, he’s a VERY stocky build. kind of short legged. That’s a tough conformation to jump and he could be telling you that.

I, too, would be looking to a vet for some guidance.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=paw;7625271]
“Charging the jumps” is not necessarily excited (as in happy to jump). It can be an evasion as well.

How is he at home? Does he seem happy jumping? It might be that jumping fences at a show just Isn’t His Thing.[/QUOTE]

At home, he seems super happy jumping. He can go around on a loose rein and do an easy, pretty hunter course. At previous shows, jumping has not been a problem. I thought long and hard about something that might be causing the refusals, and I think it’s my spurs. I have always, always ridden him in spurs but lately I’ve switched to a crop because that what my trainer prefers. At home, I always school in spurs. When I go to the trainer’s for a lesson, though, or go to a show where she’ll be, I use the crop and always get refusals. So I think that very well could be the issue!

He was abused as a foal/young colt with a crop, so I think that when I carry it he gets nervous and thinks he’s done something bad. Then he gets more and more scared and starts to refuse.

He is a very, very sensitive and smart horse. Can also be nervous/skittish. He has taught me so much about being a quiet rider because he can feel when I change my body position the tiniest bit from nerves.

[chestnuthunter]

[QUOTE=RugBug;7625405]
From what I remember of some of your videos, he’s a VERY stocky build. kind of short legged. That’s a tough conformation to jump and he could be telling you that.

I, too, would be looking to a vet for some guidance.[/QUOTE]

Hmm…I don’t know if he’s really THAT stocky.

I suppose it could be tough for him, but an 18" cross rail? He could walk over that, and he’s competed higher than that for a while now. He doesn’t appear to be in any sort of pain.

I can talk to my vet, but he probably won’t be of much help. Not much equine experience, and no other vets to turn to.

I’ve seen horses with way worse (and stockier!) conformation than him compete at much higher heights. I don’t think asking him to go over 2’0" verticals is too much for him.