[QUOTE=skydy;8293430]
I believe that for the FEI hyperflexion=rollkur. The use of “force” in pulling the horse’s head into position seems to be the deciding factor.[/QUOTE]
The question is, how much force is too much?
Is this too much?
What about this?
Hi Coth’ers
I’ve been following this tread from Denmark and felt that I had to put my 5 cents in this debate.
The FEI has issued following statement in response to the pictures taken at FalsterBo.
“The FEI finds these images extremely disturbing. We are very concerned about this incident and we are investigating it thoroughly. We have already contacted the Chief Steward at Falsterbo to ask for a full report specifically on this issue, in addition to the normal event report that has already been sent to the FEI.”
-The 60 pictures was taken in the timeframe of 2 days and you can se that in the change of the riders clothes and the tack on Tørveslettens Stamina.
Watch all of the pictures here:
http://epona.tv/blog/2015/august/falsterbo-moments
The rider Andreas Helgstrand is already on a 2 year probation because of this case. So this is not a “First time offender” getting disturbed by photographers.
http://epona.tv/blog/2014/december/akeem-foldager-time-line
Is this too much pressure?
https://www.facebook.com/eponatv/photos/a.69708918311.95884.41449083311/10154180151318312/?type=1&theater
[QUOTE=LarkspurCO;8293590]
The question is, how much force is too much?
Is this too much?
What about this?
Or this?[/QUOTE]
Exactly, that is the conundrum. What is LDR vs Rollkur?
How do you measure force?
It will be interesting to see how the FEI interprets its own rules.
God knows they’ve come up with some bizarre (and creative) interpretations of their rules in the past…
Yes, for example, Carl Hester is okay with LDR, but not Rollkur. I highly doubt he would approve a technique that limits breathing!
My thought on the difference is how you get there. If you are effectively yanking or hauling the head around with a very strong contact with the curb rein as well, I would think that is now defined as Rollkur. If done more gently, with sympathetic feeling, as to make the horse more supple or diffuse tension then it is LDR? Rollkur seems to insinuate man aggressively dominating horse while LDR is more like doing a bit of Yoga to find some zen and improve flexibility? Anyhow, that’s my take.
The pictures of Andreas Helgstrand’s riding definitely look bad, but why in this day and age is there not a video? I would have much preferred to see a video of his warmup. And in the article I read, it stated in response to whether AH was using the double bridle correctly, the quote was, “The simple answer to that question is; NO! The more extended answer is that there is hardly any way to use a double bridle correctly. This type of heavy armour has no place in the mouth of a horse in our opinion.” Hate to use the term “slippery slope”, but seems to be appropriate.
I have post about the missing video in this tread 
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?474548-FEI-Involved-in-case-of-abuse
Don’t want to get caught doubble-posting
Anyone else remember the rollkur incident with the buckskin pony at the Pony Championships a few years ago? I think it was a Dutch child rider involved somehow.
One assumes that the FEI will also enforce its hyperflexion rules in show jumping as well as dressage. Has it? Has it even informed show jumpers that such a rule exists?
I do…!
http://www.horseandcountry.tv/news/2010/05/25/final-chapter-power-and-paint-story
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2014/06/10/power-and-paint-passed-away
I have had the pleasure of riding in a clinic with Debbie. Here’s what I saw;
1 most of the riders presented in doubles. Many of the horses weren’t accepting the contact properly and they were asked to ride in a snaffle the next day.
2 some of the riders were riding with their hands too low (some near their thighs) Debbie tactfully asked them to bring their hands into a more ‘classical’ position.
3 because of these changes ie horses no longer over flexed, the horses became extremely spooky. As if because they were ridden staring at the ground constantly they suddenly were aware of their surroundings.
These were supposedly the best riders in the country (and then there was me haha). Very disturbing to me, so I can imagine what Debbie was thinking. Top riders can’t get their FEI level horses around an indoor ?
[QUOTE=skydy;8293635]
Exactly, that is the conundrum. What is LDR vs Rollkur?
How do you measure force?
It will be interesting to see how the FEI interprets its own rules.
God knows they’ve come up with some bizarre (and creative) interpretations of their rules in the past…[/QUOTE]
I would not consider any of those photos as long and low. Pretty disgusting to me even if they were only held in that position for a few seconds. The one of the horse practically standing on it’s head was grotesque. I would never allow even a massage of that sort.
[QUOTE=Gestalt;8294002]
The one of the horse practically standing on it’s head was grotesque. I would never allow even a massage of that sort.[/QUOTE]
Why do you find it grotesque? The horse is doing it on his own for a carrot. He is not being forced. Apparently he is very flexible!
http://www.promassagers.com/Equissager_Pro_files/HorseCarrotEquissagerPro425.jpg
[QUOTE=vineyridge;8293960]
Anyone else remember the rollkur incident with the buckskin pony at the Pony Championships a few years ago? I think it was a Dutch child rider involved somehow.
One assumes that the FEI will also enforce its hyperflexion rules in show jumping as well as dressage. Has it? Has it even informed show jumpers that such a rule exists?[/QUOTE]
That’s a really usefulcomparison to make actually. Power and Paint the buckskin pony was being longed with very short fixed sidereins. That creates a discomfort he can’t escape no matter what he does. A rider putting a horse in that position has the option of releasing the reins when the horse responds in the way the rider wants, that is negative reinforcement.
The positions look similar in a photo, but the release of pressure in the ridden horse is what makes them different.
I’m not FOR hyperflexion, but I think it’s better to call things what they are.
[QUOTE=ShannonLee;8293464]
I do have a problem with the “10 pounds” of contact - as this poster has said he has been riding dressage for 3 years. As we know it does take 2 lifetimes to master dressage training. In my experience there can be more than 10 pounds many times as we try to balance a 1500 pound horse. But that is better than “0” pounds in my hands of a horse that is trying to avoid contact either by going behind or above the bit. From too much contact that is “true” and " from the hind legs" we can find a balance (through half halts that are correctly ridden) which enables horse and rider to have a lighter contact - a place that we are always trying to find.[/QUOTE]
I think unless we have strain gages measuring the force of the contact, we have no idea how strong it is/isn’t. My young horse, who has never had her face ripped on or been pulled in too much, regularly has moments where her balance is off and she leans more as she regains it, and also when she is really pushing from behind on the edge of losing her balance she has a stronger contact. It’s a positive we can have that, because when she is wired and insecure I ride her up/open to a stronger contact, so she has support to focus on instead of worrying about spooking at what’s around her.
My gelding probably learned about coming behind the bit on the track, and had a less than ideal teenager riding him for a while which made it worse. Having zero weight in your hands while on a horse you can feel is about to blast off into the stratosphere is almost the worst feeling possible on a horse.
The only worse feeling I know is when the horse sticks its nose all the way too its chest, bit in teeth, and you have zero rein control to turn or somehow get the horse uncurled as the horse takes off bucking with you as my first horse used to do. It’s why 1) I can’t understand why riders feel as if they have more control with actual rollkur (vs overbent but not so sharply) because once a horse is there if it chooses to take off, I don’t see how stopping it is possible, and 2) I’m a VERY strong proponent of up/open.
[QUOTE=partlycloudy;8293975]I have had the pleasure of riding in a clinic with Debbie. Here’s what I saw;
1 most of the riders presented in doubles. Many of the horses weren’t accepting the contact properly and they were asked to ride in a snaffle the next day.
2 some of the riders were riding with their hands too low (some near their thighs) Debbie tactfully asked them to bring their hands into a more ‘classical’ position.
3 because of these changes ie horses no longer over flexed, the horses became extremely spooky. As if because they were ridden staring at the ground constantly they suddenly were aware of their surroundings.
These were supposedly the best riders in the country (and then there was me haha). Very disturbing to me, so I can imagine what Debbie was thinking. Top riders can’t get their FEI level horses around an indoor ?[/QUOTE]
Interesting. I believe that awareness of surroundings vs. control when ridden BTV (but not rollkur) is WHY we see so much behind the vertical. If judging didn’t place the highest priority on lack of missteps but intsead on true freedom of movement, over the topline and into the hind legs, we would probably see more obvious misbehavior even as we saw different movement at the top, and no longer almost every rider BTV. It’s the current style, and current emphasis, though - and I think these things are cyclical. I believe we’re moving more toward allowing longer necks/open throatlatches and good hind ends. I like that, because that’s my personal preference.
DMD travels in a rarefied group of elite riders/trainers. She sees things that most of us don’t. Perhaps this is what she is concerned about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXcIj3wWGs
Epona has an interesting writeup on Mr. Helgstrand.
“On the rare occasion we do go to a horse show, we always come home with the makings of a major international scandal, though. In 2013, that scandal was Andreas Helgstrand having taken his sick horse off medications in order to be able to compete. It was not a difficult story to research. Helgstrand admitted it himself on live radio and we heard it on our way home in the car. It was not some big secret we had to sniff out. We were just the only media to question whether it was okay in the first place to ride an oxygen deprived horse in a competition. Everybody else was like: “Oh, poor baby. Did the nasty horsey go blue in the face and not win you a medal?” That tends to happen when your main focus is the sport. The horse becomes secondary. To us, it’s the other way around.”
We also happened to have some footage of Helgstrand riding the horse quite hard in the warmup. So why were we filming him and not everyone else? The answer to that is that we were there with two cameras and filmed dozens of riders over a few hours and as usual, Helgstrand stood out for a couple of reasons, one of which was his entourage. It included his father, the President of the Danish Equestrian Federation, Ulf Helgstrand, the main sponsor of the entire championships, ECCO’s Hanni Toosbuy Kasprzak and international judge and former team veterinarian, Hans-Christian Matthiesen.
Andreas Helgstrand’s cheerleading squad on the day was not exceptional. He is a mighty man with a lot of power. That alone makes him a good story for us and perhaps also explains why the advertisement funded, industry subsidized equestrian media in Denmark tends to go a bit light on him. What other rider has a mandate to boss around the President of his Federation, ordering him to get rid of unwanted photographers by the warmup? What other rider is sitting on a horse, co-owned by the person who bankrolls the European Championships? Of course we’re going to be filming Helgstrand. If any single person personifies “The Industry” here in Denmark, it is him. We were not just filming Andreas Helgstrand. We were filming the system at work."
It would be helpful if Debbie would clearly state why she is “rethinking” her future instead of writing a cryptic face book post .
Having the prominent position that she does in U.S. dressage, it would be a better/more helpful idea to be clear instead of leaving people to wonder…
If she wasn’t holding an official position in U.S. dressage then it wouldn’t matter so much but under the circumstances I think it would be better not to beat around the bush (so to speak).
[QUOTE=skydy;8296919]
It would be helpful if Debbie would clearly state why she is “rethinking” her future instead of writing a cryptic face book post .
Having the prominent position that she does in U.S. dressage, it would be a better/more helpful idea to be clear instead of leaving people to wonder…
If she wasn’t holding an official position in U.S. dressage then it wouldn’t matter so much but under the circumstances I think it would be better not to beat around the bush (so to speak).[/QUOTE]
^I agree with you here.
She will step down as Developing Coach on May 1, 2016.
http://www.psdressage.com/viewarticle.php?id=2083
So two weeks after writing that “cryptic facebook post”, she has resigned as Developing Coach.
In the past year, USEF has lost:
Scott Hassler - YH Coach
Jeremy Steinberg - Youth Coach
Debbie McDonald - Developing Coach
Sort of makes you wonder what is going on.
Debbie has stepped down: http://horsesdaily.com/article/debbie-mcdonald-steps-down-usef-developing-dressage-coach
Maybe it’s just getting to be too hard to work under RD.
It would be helpful if Debbie would let us know why she is leaving .
Then,at least we would know what the (apparently insurmountable) problem is as she sees it. Again, we’d have a better understanding of the situation and thus, the chance at working for the greater good of U.S. Dressage.
As things stand now, all we can infer is that she believes the situation is hopeless…
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