Sandy M…I definitely agree with your comparison with a field hunter to what is currently seen as a “hunter” in the show ring.
Dressage is headed down a slippery slope…the future is not yet written… so we will see what emerges.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8282978]
Thanks for point this out…the COTH autocorrect butchered the name…and even when I went in to correct it (after reading this post)…the COTH autocorrected again!!! in the place where I put the reason for editing. It kept changing Goldstern to Goldstein until I finally (I think) figured it out.[/QUOTE]
I’m glad COTH doesn’t autocorrect me! I’m fully capable of screwing up my own posts without outside help. 
I think one of the reasons I enjoyed watching Balkenhol and Goldstern was the obvious pride and fondness that Balkenhol had for the horse. Goldstern seemed like a good egg who tried very hard to please though he wasn’t the most popular with the judges at the time.
It really is such a subjective call. I am no expert and often find myself with opinions that don’t mirror the judging. For example; I I wasn’t a big fan of Bonfire or of Parcival and both of them won, a lot… Now, there is no way on god’s green earth that I could ride either of those horses and I’m not qualified to criticize their training. Perhaps they were ridden in the best way possible for them, and would have looked worse with another rider. It’s difficult to tell.
I do love watching Valegro. I didn’t see the Euro. Championships at Aachen though so can’t compare the rides. I wonder if there is a link somewhere to the 2nd and 3rd place rides…
Re Totilas, I remember Gal saying that he (Totilas) went berserk when let loose and thus could not be turned out. I hope time has made a difference and he’s gotten better about it.
Yes, of course they do. PAIRS skating. Part of the beauty of skating, or rowing, or synchronized swimming is the harmony that comes from unison.
Maybe you are saying that the other living animal in the sport of dressage, does not have a choice to do this. But that can’t be right either?
An interesting perspective re Aachen; http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/08/24/silke-rottermann-dressage-2015-europeans-nothing-new-under-sun
[QUOTE=raff;8276571]
I’m obviously not in favour of RK , but there must be a benefit beyond the dramatic proclamations made by people who have no way of knowing. Those guys are great riders, so they don’t NEED to do it, but they DO it, why???[/QUOTE]
I keep going back to the idea that it’s about punishing the horse for reacting to the environment (losing focus on the aids), or at least putting him into a position where he can’t react too violently? Or maybe they really are good enough riders that they could ride through any reactions, although I’m not so sure of that, nor whether they’d want to find out if they could?
It all started with NU and Rembrandt, and the word is that it was used to deal with his reactivity.
It wouldn’t surprise me to find out that most do it to cope with the environment, because I can understand how riders would rather give up points to overflexed and btv than give up even more points to disobediences.
[QUOTE=skydy;8287966]
An interesting perspective re Aachen; http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/08/24/silke-rottermann-dressage-2015-europeans-nothing-new-under-sun[/QUOTE]
totally agree with Rottermann and thank you so much for posting this article!
The point of having a functional horse is that when his show days are over, he can comfortably retire, and hopefuly still be sound enough to ride.
When the brilliant show career is over, the function can be to be a schoolmaster, teaching other riders! I don’t think the function is necessarily to be a trail horse. Of course, we want all our horses to be sound enough to ride, even if they weren’t brilliant.
And here we go again…http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/08/27/andreas-helgstrand-back-hot-seat-after-publication-falsterbo-training-photos
[QUOTE=skydy;8292137]
And here we go again…http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/08/27/andreas-helgstrand-back-hot-seat-after-publication-falsterbo-training-photos[/QUOTE]
And this is the reason for a “functional horse”…Hegelstrand complains that the noise from the photographer’s cameras distracted him…and justifying that is why he had to ride curled up.
Has Debbie McDonald offered any explanation of what specifically led to her feeling that she perhaps won’t continue to be involved with competitive dressage, or are we (still) left to speculation?
[QUOTE=skydy;8292137]
And here we go again…http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2015/08/27/andreas-helgstrand-back-hot-seat-after-publication-falsterbo-training-photos[/QUOTE]
I guess I see this as a reason Debbie should STAY in the sport, and show people that good training can result in good scores. Carl Hester and Charlotte D have certainly showed us that. The more trainers who stand up and say “This is how it is done”, the better for the sport.
Though it’s pretty hard to do AT ALL with a gang of photographers trying to create their own news by spooking your horse!
The picture looked to me like a guy trying to ride out a buck/spook, though I’ve certainly seen it done more elegantly…
Interesting that the “FEI finds these pictures extremely disturbing”… have they not seen other riders warming up in this manner?
I dont understand why DM or anyone who trains correctly thinks she is losing her waY. Stay true to your principles, DM.
We have seen that good training can over and over attain medals so Debbie- train the way you believe in and aim for the top. Thats what Reiner Klimke and funny thing he was always at the top.
And no, his horses were not all bombproof:lol:
yOU dont see the carls and the charlottes and the Ingrids and the Helens and the Kristinas etc etc whining that they cant make it with correct training. Where does that come from .
They get out there, train in accordance with their principles and go figure- they even get medals.
Stay the course in your training and show the judges what you can do.
That is how things will change. It has already changed.
Sounds like sour grapes otherwise.
And no, I make no comment on AH- he has never been my cup of tea and when everyone raved about Matine- I scratched my head… I do think judging has improved leaPS and bounds since then
I’m writing from Germany and have read all the posts in this thread which I find very interesting.
Just a little bit about myself. I’m a 51 y.o. male who has been starting to learn dressage for about 3 years. I own two Bavarian Warmbloods, both mares.
I’m also a Ph.D. physicist.
What I’m missing in all the discussion provoked by DMD’s comment is simply that the sport of dressage doesn’t really use any modern methods to improve its judging or even to improve the welfare of the horse. Furthrmore, there are numerous non-intrusive methods of objectively measuring what is actually happening when a horse is ridden by a dressage rider.
Science has also made fantastic strides in learning how horses learn and can be conditioned.
Let me give here an example about objective measurements:
Force on the bit: I think we can all agree that horses that experience
several pounds of pressure on their tongue or on their bars are not being ridden with light aids. There are very simple non-intrusive methods of measuring the pressure either through the reins or through sensors on the bit. What about the idea that any rider who warms up their horse, or during a dressage event has more
than, let’s say, 10 lbs of pressure should simply be disqualified. It’s that simple.
There have been many interesting experiments that have shown that even grand prix riders completely underestimate the pressure they place on the bit.
Lots of sports have struggled to introduce technology into their judging processes. Tennis, hockey, soccer etc. Dressage would really profit from a lot of what science has learned. And here it is of paramount importance because riders compete togther with a living animal. Ethics is of utmost importance in such a sport.
Regarding some other remarks on this thread:
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Just in case some of you were not aware. Totilas was, in fact, shortly after being removed from the competition, diagnosed with a bone edema in the pastern joint, left back leg, that more than likely was causing him non-trivial pain. Interestingly, at leat one doctor during the pre-event check had noticed his irregular gate and was overruled by the other doctor and Toto was declared fit to compete. The question that many are openly asking here in the German press, is why did the German team not see this precursor to lameness previously? Or, more than likely, they knew of this problem but were hoping to get away with a good score from the judges for the team event.
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Regarding Gal and Undercover. It is not clear that his bit his lip. He bled out of his mouth but the source of the bleeding was not examined after the tournament.
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Rollkur is regularly practiced here in Germany at GP events. The riders are allowed to do so for 10 minutes during warming up. I regularly go to such events and stand right next to the trainers at the warm-up arean. They instruct the riders through the headsets and simply tell them when to start and when the 10 minutes are done. It is done quite openly. The stewards don’t dare disqualify top names from en event or sometimes simply are not capable of following 5 horses in the warm-up arena that are being ridden the way Gal does. In some dressage events, the top riders only show up if they are allowed to warm up in arenas not open to the public and press.
That is the unfortunate reality I have observed in the past three years.
Regards from Germany,
Mario
Welcome to the COTH board!
Interesting to hear more from across the pond. Too bad for Toto and shame on the vets for allowing him to continue. I am sure he was a huge draw for spectators, but I am sure all would have opted to preserve the welfare of the horse. Not sure how much the additional mileage aggravated the condition.
As far as a pressure meter, I think that would be totally unfair as every horse has a different measure of pressure that it responds to. For example, my thoroughbred thinks any pressure is too much. We struggled a very long time to even accept any contact and still ride him mainly off my seat. My sister’s Haflinger is another story. She is getting better and better, but will always have the potential to be a bulldozer despite whichever approach you take. A contact the would be considered quite abusive to my thoroughbred is like a minor inconvenience for the Haflinger.
I have also ridden GP horses owned by classical horseman that looked very easy in the contact for their male rider to ride, but for me the contact was incredibly strong to the point I nearly found them unrideable on a twenty meter circle and had blisters and sore arms while I think the horse was laughing at me…
When on occasion I have ridden a horse in a LDR position, the contact is extraordinarily light which is in essence why Boldt said it was sometimes necessary for female riders to employ it as a strong German male half-halt was impossible for these riders to reproduce. Nicole Uphoff was never going to exert the same strength in a half-halt that Klaus Balkenhol could. Do some riders abuse LDR/Rollkur? Yes, I think so. But I have seen horses remain extraordinarily light in a classical position quickly after a sharp, jaw-jarring half halt as well.
Undercover does go with a very short neck, but from the videos of Zonik, another of Gal’s horses I have seen, he goes in a lovely, open position. Same riding by Edward, but a bit different outline so will be interesting how the judges will compare the two. I certainly wouldn’t say the blood was definitely from a harsh hand as I have had a horse develop a bloody mouth just hanging out in a stall.
Unfortunately, it is a tricky situation, but I think some very nice combinations finished at the top at Aachen. Hope to see more of them soon, especially Delgado!
Couple of questions and an observation.
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The FEI talks in terms of hyperflexion. Is there a difference between that and Rollkur? Or between that and LDR? The physiological effects of a horse who is unable to breathe freely and one that can would be significantly different, wouldn’t they?
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IMO, the purpose of rollkur is to frighten the horse so it will not resist the rider’s commands. Would that be a correct assessment?
I just read an article about horse vision that says the horse can roll its eyes so that even in a dressage frame it would be able to see the ground ahead of it. Would the same be true in Rollkur or hyperflexion, whatever that is? If so, it would appear that the restrictions on breathing are the operative effect of that method.
I believe that for the FEI hyperflexion=rollkur. The use of “force” in pulling the horse’s head into position seems to be the deciding factor.
It wasn’t the vets who decided Toto could compete. There are vets and judges at any FEI jog. And many horses who would not pass a prepurchase soundness exam can be verified “fit to compete”.
I do have a problem with the “10 pounds” of contact - as this poster has said he has been riding dressage for 3 years. As we know it does take 2 lifetimes to master dressage training. In my experience there can be more than 10 pounds many times as we try to balance a 1500 pound horse. But that is better than “0” pounds in my hands of a horse that is trying to avoid contact either by going behind or above the bit. From too much contact that is “true” and " from the hind legs" we can find a balance (through half halts that are correctly ridden) which enables horse and rider to have a lighter contact - a place that we are always trying to find.
