Methinks we are talking in circles here… Can someone enlighten me as to what I really said in my previous post? :lol: 
[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8281337]
Methinks we are talking in circles here… Can someone enlighten me as to what I really said in my previous post? :lol: [/QUOTE]
It doesn’t matter. You were wrong. 
:lol:
Well OK then :lol: :lol:
Good posts candico.
It seemed to me that by “totally disagreeing” with raff, that you think trainers who have horses that display tension and spook at these big CDIs have not done their homework? Or maybe that you disagree that we should not try to make venues a bit less intimidating if we can? If a total non-chicken sh** like Isabel complains of an arena being unfairly scary - I think it is a valid concern especially if one is truly concerned for the welfare of our mounts. One can do their best to prepare their horse for anything, but sometimes it reaches a point of being unfair to a horse’s natural reflex of flight. If we train and breed that out of horses completely - is that ultimately a good thing in the face of their survival?
Another big factor for what we see at the top levels is that easily bomb-proofed, naturally “relaxed” horses pretty much always get sold to ammies. Most top trainers don’t often own their own horses or if they do, they rely on horse sales to fund their career. As an owner, if your horse is “easy” either you take over the ride or sell for $$$. Who wants to pay $$$ month after month on an easy horse for some high dollar trainer to ride? It is just rather very, very rare…
Plus, as one becomes an elite trainer, I think they gravitate toward quirky horses because it challenges them both mentally and physically. Nothing more rewarding or fairytale-like than achieving brilliance with the impossibly difficult horse!
Lastly, I could almost bet that if Valegro wasn’t a head-shaker and his gaits were much, much easier to sit - even Carl complains about having to ride him when Charlotte’s away, that he would have sold long ago and we would never have had the pleasure of seeing Charlotte expertly piloting his brilliance. Maybe Toto would have stayed with Edward if he was a touch more difficult - Lingh obviously made a decent adult amateur horse. Off the top of my head, Steffen is one of the lucky ones as far as sponsors with Rosie so it will be very interesting to see how that turns out for them.
Ps. Thx Crockpot!
Oh heck, my horse is 11, I’ve tried to expose him to everything under the sun, and while he doesn’t do major yee-haws anymore, he is almost always very tense at show venues - and we’re talking quiet shows where the only spectators are friends/trainer/family of the riders, no audience as such. (He is half-Arabian, so now having said that, Arab lovers can tell me THAT is not the reason he’s spooky…). Then there’s my previous horse: Bombproof at 5.5 years old, had him for over 20 years, could put anyone on him. He was half TB. Some horses settle down after exposure to things, others don’t - ever. Shrug
[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8281233]
Respectfully and totally disagree. All horses should, must and often are brought to these large venues as youngsters. [/QUOTE]
I don’t think my observation is on-point to the original discussion but, FWIW, Verdades had never been to any of the venues after Gladstone in June 2014, much less those venues under those circumstances.
Just sayin’ … a horse is a horse, but not all horses are the same
[QUOTE=candico;8281277]
And back to Valegro… I don’t think I would use the word “relaxed” to describe his tests at all. There has to be an incredible amount of tension in those muscles to bound off the ground as high as he does. Must be a better word - relaxed just doesn’t seem right to describe the way he goes. Maybe with bold confidence and pride?
.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for pointing this out - I hear “tension” tossed around all the time - and I think people forget that positive tension is absolutely necessary to get the work done! Valegro is relaxed afterwards on a loose rein, but yes, there is so much muscle tension required to create a passage, a piaffe, an extended trot.
Valegro is rewarded because he displays so much positive tension, yet looks confident and comfortable in the process. Maybe confidence is the better word?
And too often, I see totally relaxed lower level rides - and the riders don’t understand why they didn’t score better. There MUST be some tension, some power, some energy in the ride to score well. Rider and horse must both be engaged, using their core, their muscles, dressage is stinking HARD WORK!
I always thought relaxation was the wrong word to describe what is going on (except maybe in the free walk, and even there, we need purpose and energy).
To get back on the DMcD comments about dressage having lost its way. Debby competed late 1990’s-early 2000’s (Brentina retired in 2009). She (Debby not Brentina) is of an age where she was exposed to the remnants of people who expected their horses to be “functional.” She didn’t use those words, and I’m extrapolating…but she is of the generation that expected well-rounded equine citizens. Maybe that is her expectation also.
The poster-child for this mentality is police captain Klaus Balkenhol, who took his police horse Rabauke to a clinic at Warrendorf, where Willi Schultheiss (German Team Coach) considered the pair as candidates for the German team.
Balkenhol is better known for his partnership with Goldstern…another police horse. Balkenhol was raised in a farming family and took his farm horse to competitions to further his interest in jumping and dressage.
I am amazed at the comments that justify “quirky horses.” The whole goal of REAL horse training is to get to the that “quirky” horse to be comfortable with whatever comes their way.
If one is a real “horse trainer”…vs someone who is just after dressage medals…then the the challenge is to take those “quirky horses” and turn them into educated, calm and polite equine citizens.
Remember the old adage…“Calm, Forward and Straight”…perhaps that’s what DMcD says is missing.
Maybe what DMcD is saying is that the current goal is missing the training of the whole horse…and that the only goal has now morphed solely to winning in a 20mx60m arena. And that the judges are rewarding certain performances that would not have been rewarded in the past.
Look at what happened to the dogs (as illustrated in my prior posts about GSD and bulldogs)…look at what happened to horses. A saddle seat horse was to be the epitome of a riding horse. A TWH was to be the epitome of a horse that took the owner on long walks in the plantation. The judges rewarded extremes in these disciplines…and look at what happened.
The judges rewarded obese QH on little feet, so people bred them. The judges rewarded deformed little noses and flat croups on Arabs, and people bred them…the saving grace for the Arabs is the endurance discipline. A discipline that requires FUNCTIONAL use of the horse.
The history is yet to be written on what will happen to dressage. Judges are morphing the competition of what once was expected of a functional, calm, obedient horse into a show machine worthy of the “Super Prix”
http://www.superprix.net
I think part of why the top pros have the quirky horses is very often when you have high energy you also have quirks… My trainer is working with his stallion who he didn’t geld because he is already too mellow and too low energy - he’s not a breeding horse. Trying to get really good piaffe and passage out of this horse is HARD.
One day my trainer was riding my high energy mare at a walk before one of my lessons. She had extra energy, so just for fun he asked for piaffe… and she piaffed better than a lot of our local GP competitors do. That energy simply makes the upper level movements easier. They don’t have to get worked up or tense if they innately have that energy - and yet, they more easily get worked up or tense if they have that energy. Now, my mare is actually VERY simple and straightforward to ride despite her energy… but that’s luck and the functional breeding mentioned - she has international jumping and eventing competitors rather than just straight dressage competitors in her bloodlines, though there were some international GP dressage horses from a couple decades ago.
My trainer has a mare who is even higher energy, and that energy DOES make her quirky. It also made it so when a rider who wasn’t used to a super light contact on her she passaged as if that were the most natural thing in the world. She has so much energy and talent there’s no real question she’ll move up the levels, but that energy means she isn’t the easy ride people are talking about, and really won’t be, to that extent. She’ll be an ammy ride, but only a skillful amateur who knows how to be tactful and ignore the “spooky corner” instead of making the spooky spots worse as most of us amateurs naturally unintentionally do.
Well, yeah.
Horse sport is not about “functional”. It’s about pushing the limit. Let’s face it, unless you are working on a ranch, a horse is no longer required to perform a real job. (and plenty of ranches use 4-wheelers instead of horses)
So what’s the point of having a merely “functional” horse, when you can produce a brilliant partnership that is very entertaining to watch?
I agree you might be rewarding flash instead of “proper” training, but there’s no way we’re going back. Look at competitive figure skating as an example. Compulsory figures used to be part and parcel of the competition - now it’s just long and short programs. Why? Because the “more functional” but less flashy skaters could still win even with boring and safe free skates. That doesn’t attract a large audience.
[QUOTE=Sunsets;8282733]
Well, yeah.
Horse sport is not about “functional”. It’s about pushing the limit. Let’s face it, unless you are working on a ranch, a horse is no longer required to perform a real job. (and plenty of ranches use 4-wheelers instead of horses)
So what’s the point of having a merely “functional” horse, when you can produce a brilliant partnership that is very entertaining to watch?
I agree you might be rewarding flash instead of “proper” training, but there’s no way we’re going back. Look at competitive figure skating as an example. Compulsory figures used to be part and parcel of the competition - now it’s just long and short programs. Why? Because the “more functional” but less flashy skaters could still win even with boring and safe free skates. That doesn’t attract a large audience.[/QUOTE]
Okey dokey…if we accept this philosophy, then DMcD is right…dressage has lost its way. Even the new director of the Spanish Riding School said that they had to get in tune with the times…whereas it used to be a place (I thought of it like a monastery) where ancient traditions were kept alive.
We will see if dressage is headed the way of saddle seat and TWH.
The comparison with figure skating is tenuous at best…skaters don’t have another living animal as the partner for the human.
If you want to “push the limit” then perhaps it is better to compare with Iditarod…but, oops, that competition has a functional component to the use of the animal.
The exhibitions I saw at Cavalia demonstrated calm horses in tune with their trainers…pushing the limit of what can be asked at liberty with stallions…I don’t see that with competition dressage at the upper levels.
In all directives and treatises on dressage training a passage or piaffe that arises out of nervous energy is considered incorrect training.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8282768]
In all directives and treatises on dressage training a passage or piaffe that arises out of nervous energy is considered incorrect training.[/QUOTE]
Was this aimed at me?
Nervous energy is never good. But energy is necessary. And if the horse naturally has energy, it’s far easier than trying to create energy - and trying to create energy often creates nervous tension as well. I stated that when sufficient energy/self motivation is present, it can too often and too easily translate into nervous energy, which is my personal theory on why there are more nervous/quirky horses around.
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8282690
Balkenhol is better known for his partnership with Goldstein…another police horse. Balkenhol was raised in a farming family and took his farm horse to competitions to further his interest in jumping and dressage.
http://www.superprix.net[/QUOTE]
I enjoyed watching this pair.The horse’s name was Goldstern. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=goldstern+balkenhol&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
[QUOTE=skydy;8282839]
I enjoyed watching this pair.The horse’s name was Goldstern. https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=goldstern+balkenhol&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001[/QUOTE]
Thanks for point this out…the COTH autocorrect butchered the name…and even when I went in to correct it (after reading this post)…the COTH autocorrected again!!! in the place where I put the reason for editing. It kept changing Goldstern to Goldstein until I finally (I think) figured it out.
First of all, one horse and rider do not define a generation or success of a certain training method. Yes, Goldstern was an awesome horse, but you can’t say every horse that comes through the Balkenhol barn has been a steady-eddie like he was. Not even close… I think to define trends, you have to take at least the top ten or twenty riders of a time period instead of picking the best one as the representative of the whole. Same with training methods - are the top twenty classically-trained dressage horses more bomb-proof than the top twenty who sometimes use LDR? Remember, Debbie borrowed a horse rather than take Brentina for Aachen ceremonies. Wizard was no steady-Eddie either - but, I don’t fault the training. Just recognize every horse is different!
If you really look at horses today vs what we can find twenty plus years ago, they move much, much, more through their entire bodies than ever before. Yes, it appears that we see more leg action because yes some are leggier, but more so because they maximize their gaits by using the entire body. There is no way you are going to sit on a horse like Goldstern and then a horse like Fiontina or Valegro and think for a second that Goldstern used his whole body better. Or Ahlreich for that matter… And take the top twenty combo of today vs the top twenty of thirty years ago - the horses and riders now have definitely improved the quality of athleticism that goes into the sport. The fact that many are competing in multiple Olympics, World Cups, and a plethora of other top venues in between show that we are improving soundness and longevity. Can’t see how that compares to the demise of the show dog…
That said, there are a few who seem to burn through horses despite having privy to the best. I question Andreas Helgstrand’s methods and cringe when his riding was described at the YH championships especially having enjoyed watching Charlotte expertly ride that same horse.
I also do think judges do get star struck - I believe it was Gribbons that gave Toto a 79% while the other judges were at 72% while he was visibly uneven behind. And no, Edward didn’t have the best outing with Undercover and were a bit over scored IMO. But not sure that hasn’t always been an issue - seems like human nature, but with more transparency I think we can move toward curbing inflated scores. I am sure Gribbons was embarrassed and wonder if she felt Debbie’s remark was directed at her.
So, basically, is what we are saying here that while it might not be QUITE as bad as the disaster that is Big Lick compared to a functional, do his job TWH, we have morphed into a divide something like the difference between a REAL (field) hunter and a “show” hunter? What used to be a venue for people to show their great jumping, go across country after the hounds in all types of weather and conditions horse has become a show place for the glossy, slightly overweight sedate WB that does eight perfect fences in great style, but would probably freak or is not to be risked in open country? (I realize the Hunter Derbys are a step back to the days of outside courses and Corinthian classes, but they ain’t there yet)
So we have a few horses that are trained as FEI Level dressage horses that can
maintain good behavior and even be trail ridden on occasion(Valegro and Ravel come to mind), and that look harmonious and relaxed with a positive energy/tension when performing, but the vast majority of the A-Number-1 Horses need to be extremely hyper/tense/etc. despite their training, with extravagant, flashy gaits, the equivalent of a Formula-1 racecar, not at all suitable for anyone but an Olympic calibre rider, but that is now the norm, and Valegro the exception that proves the rule?
(Yes, exaggeration, but it sure does seem to be the way things are heading.) Whatever. Perhaps I should take up endurance…nah, my horse is too big even if he is half-Arabian.)
So, basically, is what we are saying here that while it might not be QUITE as bad as the disaster that is Big Lick compared to a functional, do his job TWH, we have morphed into a divide something like the difference between a REAL (field) hunter and a “show” hunter? What used to be a venue for people to show their great jumping, go across country after the hounds in all types of weather and conditions horse has become a show place for the glossy, slightly overweight sedate WB that does eight perfect fences in great style, but would probably freak or is not to be risked in open country? (I realize the Hunter Derbys are a step back to the days of outside courses and Corinthian classes, but they ain’t there yet)
So we have a few horses that are trained as FEI Level dressage horses that can
maintain good behavior and even be trail ridden on occasion(Valegro and Ravel come to mind), and that look harmonious and relaxed with a positive energy/tension when performing, but the vast majority of the A-Number-1 Horses need to be extremely hyper/tense/etc. despite their training, with extravagant, flashy gaits, the equivalent of a Formula-1 racecar, not at all suitable for anyone but an Olympic calibre rider, but that is now the norm, and Valegro the exception that proves the rule?
(Yes, exaggeration, but it sure does seem to be the way things are heading.) Whatever. Perhaps I should take up endurance…nah, my horse is too big even if he is half-Arabian.)
And what about your horse? Dead calm and functional in all conditions?
They are individuals and not robots- nor should they be. Their natural brilliance is carefully channeled through progressive training-- not completely broken. These are well trained horses that can go into a highly charged venue such as an Olympic Stadium and put in a beautiful and obedient GP test but people want more- they want them all to be completely bombproof. Dressage training is not about creating the most dead broke horse. That is western pleasure.
For those who mourn the good old days - read up on Ahlerich.
Nope, never said my present horse was dead calm and functional in all conditions. On the other hand, my previous horse was and he was that way from age 5 - but that was HIS temperament. He was the go-to horse for anything from babysitting young children to working cattle (not trained to do it, but unflappable and obedient) to dressage to jumping (he preferred hunters to eventing, FWIW)
Nah, I’m just saying that we talk about dressage training creating a more rideable horse. But we all know that temperament is very important and training can overcome over-sensitivity/resistance just so far. Some horses cope well under stressful circumstances, others don’t. One of the (few) things I LIKED about Totilas was that for all the brilliance (for all the “spider climbing the wall” epithets, let’s still call it that), when a test was over, he DID walk out of the arena on a loose rein and appeared pretty at ease with all the crowd noise, etc.
I guess what I’m trying to express (obviously not too well) - and what may be relevant to Debbie McDonald’s comments - is that the harmony and positive tension of horses like Valegro and Brentina seems to be valued less and/or is in the minority, and that explosiveness and/or somewhat forced brilliance is seen as a positive thing; riding on the edge something to be desired more than harmony, whether the horse looks like it’s enjoying the process or not. I couldn’t stand to watch Parsival, mouth gaping from an apparent death grip on the reins) - but that was the 2012 Olympic silver medal performance (I think - was it bronze? not sure) The contrast from that to Valegro - yet the scores close, I do NOT understand.
Personally, I want to see the horses ridden in the show ring less as machines which must be flawless. I believe the SHORT reins (caps, because they’re not just appropriately short) and noses just behind the vertical, powered up from behind, and REALLY held between the aids methods make horses who seem to behave more seamlessly, and as they are such spectacular quality horses they can look good at all gaits doing it.
I want to see those horses allowed to lengthen their necks at the trot, allowed to truly step under from behind as few do, and ridden in such a way you actually know if they are submissive or not - because they have the room they can misbehave if they aren’t feeling submissive that day. There are a few who ride that way - we’ve all seen it happen with Legolas, where he spooks and Steffen is riding him loose enough he can get the head up, Wizard used to do it regularly, etc. But most aren’t going to let any sort of misbehavior ever show. And there’s a difference between riding a horse on the aids and correctly reaching out to the bit, vs. the style of letting the neck get shorter than ideal and not minding, because it helps your submission scores, etc. I WANT to see a horse’s head change position slightly depending on movement. Open through the throatlatch in the piaffe to allow the true sit and correct work, etc.
I’m not talking about the bumbling amateur who can’t keep consistent contact or simply can’t be steady enough to keep a willing and nowhere near international horse on the aids (I’m referring to myself, none of you!), but at the top of the sport I want to SEE those moments where the horse is less willing or imbalanced, in an altered head position because the rider isn’t holding the horse in a less than classical position which enforces complete submission.
I think most of us have ridden enough horses in front of and slightly behind the vertical to know the difference in a horse’s ability to come above the bit or otherwise misbehave in a solid contact from one position or the other. To me, you don’t have true submission shown if the horse isn’t choosing to stay with you when it could possibly do otherwise.
ETA: I don’t think my opinion is the popular one. Seamless and smooth IS appealing. I just prefer it to be the exceptional case, rather than the case created by method of riding even if horse doesn’t want to be that way.
