I live in Spain where bullfighting is considered by MANY MANY Spaniards to be a national shame. If you had seen, like I have, the failed bullfighting horses who come often from Portugal looking for rescue homes literally afraid of their own shadows you might feel differently. If you knew HOW the horses are ACTUALLY trained, and didn’t hold on to a romanticized blinkered idea of it, you couldn’t say those things.
Unless of course you are like those old Spanish men in Government who just refuse to see, in the name of ‘‘tradition’’ pluvinel 
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8279783]
It is obvious you don’t approve of bullfighting. That is irrelevant. The bullfight offers a living window to the past. It shows how a war horse was prepared for battle. A battle where the rider and horse’s life depended on the horse’s ability and skill…which were the result of its training.[/QUOTE]
It’s not irrelevant. What you believe informs your opinion, and gives a pretty good indication of whos opinion is worth anything.
It is irrelevant because this is a thread about what Debby McDonald said, not a thread about the political correctness of bullfighting.
[QUOTE=raff;8280374]
It’s not irrelevant. What you believe informs your opinion, and gives a pretty good indication of whos opinion is worth anything.[/QUOTE]
It is irrelevant because this is a thread about what Debby McDonald said, not a thread about the political correctness of bullfighting.
I am wondering how we got from “Are we losing our way in this sport (i.e., dressage)?”, to a discussion about the methods and ethics of bullfighting. I mean, I am sure Debbie would be aghasted to know that some people think she is equating current dressage training with BULLFIGHTING.
OTOH - we have done it to ourselves in this sport. Everyone grumbles about dressage not being more popular with the masses. Everyone wants dressage coverage on TV. And TPTB say the way to to do that is to make sponsors willing to pay big bucks to sponsor it, which means it has to appeal to a huge market segment - i.e., attract BIG crowds, who are potential consumers of the sponsor’s products. And the way to attract the multitudes is to put more flash and sizzle and electricity into the sport. You do that with brilliant moving horses that are on the verge of explosion, and that can “put on a show”. (Saddlebreds, TWH, Arabians anyone?)
And if a horse blows up here and there, or comes up lame in the ring, all the better. The less knowledgeable spectators will love it - kind of like the NASCAR fans who deep down inside hope to see a spectacular wreck, or the PBR fans who want to see a cowboy get his clock cleaned by a bull. So maybe modern dressage is like bullfighting after all, since bullfighting fans want to see a matador get his clock cleaned by the bull. Hey, it’s EXCITING. It brings the masses to the show. There aren’t many snoring husbands and bored kids at NASCAR or PBR events, nor (I assume) at bullfights. Everyone is on the edge of their seat, waiting for “the big moment.”
So maybe what is happening in this sport is a perfect example of the old adage - “Be careful what you ask for.”
[QUOTE=pluvinel;8280386]
It is irrelevant because this is a thread about what Debby McDonald said, not a thread about the political correctness of bullfighting.[/QUOTE]
Well YOU introduced the opinion of a bull fighter into a conversation about modern dressage training.I agree the opinion of someone who doesn’t do the sport we’re talking about, and whos horse will apparently fall over if it isn’t kept up in front is irrelevant.
Not everything old is good just because it is old.
Therein lies the rub and the faulty premise,
That includes things like slavery, xenophon and bullfighting
[QUOTE=Sandy M;8279836]
I started out H/J then into eventing, and eventually dressage. ALL my instructors - even the H/J ones - basically stated the above as the purpose and be-all and end-all of dressage per se. That’s why I, though I have competed no higher than 2nd level (but have ridden some FEI horses) shake my head in befuddlement when I am told that I should not critique/look askance/say “I don’t like that” when I see some FEI competitors, “because these horses are high performance machines and are not for everybody.” Well, yeah, my own horse is not one I can let just anyone ride. I can take the “risk” such as it is, but I will only allow riders of a certain level of competence to get on him…but, really? An Internationl FEI horse is trained to the highest level but it is not rideable for a reasonably competent rider, but only the tippy-top medal-winning FEI competitors? I thought rideability was the original purpose of dressage.[/QUOTE]
Question everything!!! It is so valuable to have an instructor or mentor to discuss these questions with. Someone who can discern the mistakes out in the FEI rectangle and explain them to you.
But as for the rideability of these high level horses, also understand - FEI horses are like “elite” athletes. The nature of FEI comp. today (much like horse racing, show jumping and eventing) demands a honed performance of high caliber. Therefore you are going to find animals whose breeding, diet, work regime, etc… can meet these requirements. These animals tend to be difficult to handle much less ride.
[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8280662]
But as for the rideability of these high level horses, also understand - FEI horses are like “elite” athletes. The nature of FEI comp. today (much like horse racing, show jumping and eventing) demands a honed performance of high caliber. Therefore you are going to find animals whose breeding, diet, work regime, etc… can meet these requirements. These animals tend to be difficult to handle much less ride.[/QUOTE]
Yes, for most of the top horses, this is really true. They are not schoolmasters, they are elite athletes. There may be a few that “anyone” can ride, but in more cases, these horses are for top riders. Brilliance often comes with complexity!
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;8280807]
Yes, for most of the top horses, this is really true. They are not schoolmasters, they are elite athletes. There may be a few that “anyone” can ride, but in more cases, these horses are for top riders. Brilliance often comes with complexity![/QUOTE]
Indeed, one should not expect top level athletes in any discipline to go around like old school plugs when a lower level, beginner rider gets on their backs. They are usually VERY sure of themselves and won’t suffer fools lightly. Even those lucky trainers with schoolmaster GP horses in their strings won’t plop a beginner rider on their back and expect the rider to know what to do.
There’s a big difference between an “old school plug” and a top athlete that can perform tough movements with elegance, flow, and RELAXATION. I see so many tense tense tense horses being rewarded in high level competitions. Relaxation is/should be achieved early on and should not disappear as the horse moves up the levels. We should be looking for performances like Dujarden’s.
SportArab I so agree.
[QUOTE=belgianWBLuver;8280662]
The nature of FEI comp. today (much like horse racing, show jumping and eventing) demands a honed performance of high caliber. Therefore you are going to find animals whose breeding, diet, work regime, etc… can meet these requirements. These animals tend to be difficult to handle much less ride.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I fully understand this. As I said, my own horse (showing 2nd/schooling 3rd) is not an easy ride (and I am at present nursing the bruises that prove it). My previous horse, a convert from H/J who was doing 2nd/3rd when I retired him, was well schooled for his level and temperamentally suited for ANYONE. It’s true in any discipline that SOME horses may not be suitable for everyone. I wouldn’t have wanted to hop on many top race horses - me - a racing stallion - no. I wouldn’t put a beginner on (this is a random for instance) McLain Ward’s Rothschild (who may well be beginner safe for all I know.) But there are difficult/too hot/too sensitive horses in all disciplines at all levels. I’ve seen some TL horses about which I would say, “no thanks” to a ride. But it truly bothers me to say as a generality that a high-performance dressage horse, presumably trained to a fair-thee-well, is unrideable for all but the Olympic level rider.
I had some delightful lessons on my old trainer’s GP horse who was quite successful in his era. He remained a little hot because he’d originally been jumped (and liked it!), but he was rideable by anyone slightly above beginner level. I also rode her PSG stallion a few times, and while he was not a totally easy ride, an intermediate could ride him effectively, and he was a hot TB. for both horses, correctly applied aids generated the appropriate response, incorrect ones were ignored, you just had to be a little more subtle with the stallion. I don’t know: It would appear to be something of a conundrum: Presumably a well-trained horse should be rideable by anyone with basic good horsemanship, BUT…temperamentally that may not be so. But does that mean that EVERY horse trained to FEI levels is temperamentally unsuited for anyone but a total expert? I realize that the woman who hacks out Valegro was herself once an Olympian, but she is an older woman who appears to just take him for quiet hacks - so it would seem some FEI horses are temperamentally safe rides…eh…going in circles here… ;o)
[QUOTE=SportArab;8281070]
There’s a big difference between an “old school plug” and a top athlete that can perform tough movements with elegance, flow, and RELAXATION. I see so many tense tense tense horses being rewarded in high level competitions. Relaxation is/should be achieved early on and should not disappear as the horse moves up the levels. We should be looking for performances like Dujarden’s.[/QUOTE]
I wonder about perspective here. How do you “punish” a well-executed movement in an FEI 5-star GP class? Against what standard?
If the tension ruins a movement, well, sure. But if the canter pirouette (for example) is the size of a dinner plate, the hind feet never jump together, the weight is carried behind, the forehand is moving freely, and the 360 degrees are rhythmically executed, the score must reflect all those achievements.
Those amazing movers who exhibit tension aren’t rewarded for it. Their scores are likely a half-point or a point lower than they could be if they were able to demonstrate the relaxation.
As I see it, Valegro (for example) gets scores well above most of the best international horses because of his relaxation.
[QUOTE=Sandy M;8281122]
…
But it truly bothers me to say as a generality that a high-performance dressage horse, presumably trained to a fair-thee-well, is unrideable for all but the Olympic level rider. [/QUOTE]
And hot temperment issues aside, in FEI horses, the other issue which I forgot to address earlier, is that many of these horses are super sensitive - and I mean super sensitive. I rode a highly trained Lipizzaner years ago and I swear, the first time I got on him he would do unasked for tempi changes every stride. My employer explained to me that since I could not keep my body, legs or hands still unless applying an aide, I would never be able to ride him successfully. I learned…
Later I rode an FEI lever Trakener gelding and was promptly bucked off as he got sick of my constantly tight thighs and stiffness in my lower back. (I really didn’t think this was an issue with my sear at the time) I learned to loosen them, really loosen and relax them…
Some horse are wonderfully forgiving, some are just unforgiving and won’t put up with mistakes. Horses are all individuals…
It also begs the question, what exactly are you supposed to do when your well trained happy athlete freaks out in an atmosphere you can’t prepare him for other than at the venue?
A big part of the tension these horses show is caused by the conditions of the competition.
That would be a place to start.
Move the cameras away a bit, don’t have them walk past frightening things on the way to the warm-up, and so on, for a more horse friendly atmosphere.
If the horses are being bred to be electric and sensitive and therefore show brilliance in their tests, it’s only fair to make the environment suitable for them.
It really isn’t fair to demonize the rider for having to control these horses when they get upset by it all.
Even Klimke had trouble with Pascal and couldn’t defuse his tension and also had to give BioTop some very severe corrections, without all the razzamatazz of todays competition atmosphere.
Anyone who thinks that because dressage means training, every horse should be able to tolerate everything in the way of fearful stimuli is very naive imo.
Comparing a low key local competition with an International competition is just really not helpful. It isn’t the same thing, at all!
Every horse has its limits and they can’t all be Valegro.
[QUOTE=raff;8281192]
It also begs the question, what exactly are you supposed to do when your well trained happy athlete freaks out in an atmosphere you can’t prepare him for other than at the venue?
A big part of the tension these horses show is caused by the conditions of the competition.
That would be a place to start.
Move the cameras away a bit, don’t have them walk past frightening things on the way to the warm-up, and so on, for a more horse friendly atmosphere.
If the horses are being bred to be electric and sensitive and therefore show brilliance in their tests, it’s only fair to make the environment suitable for them.
It really isn’t fair to demonize the rider for having to control these horses when they get upset by it all.
Even Klimke had trouble with Pascal and couldn’t defuse his tension and also had to give BioTop some very severe corrections, without all the razzamatazz of todays competition atmosphere.
Anyone who thinks that because dressage means training, every horse should be able to tolerate everything in the way of fearful stimuli is very naive imo.
Comparing a low key local competition with an International competition is just really not helpful. It isn’t the same thing, at all!
Every horse has its limits and they can’t all be Valegro.[/QUOTE]
Respectfully and totally disagree. All horses should, must and often are brought to these large venues as youngsters. We use to pack 'em up in the lorry with the seasoned veterans and maybe even a really calm school horse and bring everyone to the venue. My job was often to get these youngsters out 3 x a day and lunge, hand walk, ride them all over the place… They learn to get used to it. They learn to ignore the cameras, umbrellas, baby carriages, very large and packed grand stands, you name it.
Yes some can have a bad spook and others are spooky more often but they have just get out there and do it - it is part of their job.
I ride a big “spookster” as I like to call him - and am constantly getting him to all kinds of different venues - taking him out and lunging, hand walking and riding him all over the place, then tying him to the trailer with a hay net so he can just live with it and munch at the same time. Its working…
So are you saying that trainers who have horses that spook at large, scary venues fall short on their training methods? Because I can think of plenty of top trainers with marvelous, classically-trained horses have major spooking and tension issues, including Debbie McDonald…
And back to Valegro… I don’t think I would use the word “relaxed” to describe his tests at all. There has to be an incredible amount of tension in those muscles to bound off the ground as high as he does. Must be a better word - relaxed just doesn’t seem right to describe the way he goes. Maybe with bold confidence and pride?
To me he embodies the type who would be class president and Charlotte his cheerleader, while Undercover is more the talented-yet-shy wallflower that Gal must hold his hand to bring forth from the shadows. No matter what style of training, it is very difficult to completely change a horse’s innate personality. How many have seen their own trainers have vastly different results with various horses despite using the same training methods for each one? I’d almost say the type that become schoolmasters can even have their training accomplished much more quickly than those needing very precise riding. And those trainers who do have more cookie-cutter results, just gravitate toward a certain type and avoid the difficult ones altogether.
[QUOTE=candico;8281277]
So are you saying that trainers who have horses that spook at large, scary venues fall short on their training methods? Because I can think of plenty of top trainers with marvelous, classically-trained horses have major spooking and tension issues, including Debbie McDonald…
.[/QUOTE]
No I’m NOT saying that, because these BNT’s do exactly what I said in my post at the small and large venues all over Europe… They have to get them out often to be successful.
And what you’re missing is that these guys have done ALL THAT too. It’s not the same thing to be there competing.I’ll bet none of the horses you’ve ridden are out being competitive at the level we’re talking about. To add, having been competing at an actual CDI ,you’re not even allowed to bring random horses along and the stabling has guards around it, so how exactly does THAT work with getting them used to it? 
