Yes, I’m not suggesting a curb, which is why I put double bridle in quotes and then referred to riding solely off the caveson reins. I have not done this myself, but understand that it is used in Spain/Portugul.
Here is a brief post, more Googling might yield better info (Serrata might be a better search term than caveson/cavesson, which just bring up lots of standard double bridles):
Came here to say the same thing and support riding off of the cavesson! Also, doing in-hand work with
the side-reins attached to the cavesson (instead of the bit) is fantastic. The in-hand work will also help you and your horse’s relationship tremendously 
Regarding the dee-ring vs loose ring snaffle debate, I was taught that the dee-ring (or eggbutt, full cheek, etc.) is a fixed cheekpiece and has a more stable feel for the horse compared to a loose ring which, obviously, has a loose cheekpiece. I have found that a lot of fresh off of the track Thoroughbreds, who can have pretty tough mouths, preferred the fixed cheekpiece to the loose due to the stability. Honestly I think that it’s less about the cheekpiece and more about the mouthpiece which is a big ball of yarn…! Less is more.
She is getting more respectful of the halter on the ground, groundwork is ongoing, but when she decides to ‘look’ at something she looks.
I have ridden in a halter in the corral, seeing what she knows, absolutely no respect for the halter cues yet.
There are literally hundreds. What material mouthpiece do you want?
i would like a full cheek mullen (ie no break) made out of stainless steel. Without the rubber or poly thickness.
Titanium:
Sweet iron:
Unknown:
Stubben makes one to order, you’d have to call them:
If you can handle a little bit of play but don’t want it to be able to collapse, myler and others make:
https://www.doversaddlery.com/elite-mlln-barrel-fll-chk-bit/p/X1-013595/
Dring, has the same general effect as a full cheek if the Ds are big enough, sweet iron/blue steel:
https://www.smartpakequine.com/pt/shires-blue-alloy-hunter-dee-with-mullen-mouth-21123
O THANKS!!!
…just ordered the eBay one!
I have the Fager Sara baby fulmer. The shanks are oddly short, and not great with babies that mess around with bits. (i have another Fager Titanium baby fulmer with one break and that works great on two of my horses, it’s a very refined bit)
Not going to jump into the bit debate, but if the stop is non-existent try reinforcing every stop with a back up. Helps to get them “backed off” the bit a little.
ok thank you! Hadn’t heard of this!
This, in a much different but pretty similar way at least for this step, is how Vaquero bridle breaking is done, too.
Be careful about backing up the horse to reinforce the stop: you could end up teaching the horse that every stop is meant to be immediately followed by flying backward.
I know this because my current horse came to me with this problem.
I’d add: think about using your whole body as a rider to bring the horse to a halt. Don’t just use the reins. Think about the connection of your body to the saddle to the horse’s back and gently resist the forward motion, hug the horse more firmly with you knees, and keep some tension on the reins but don’t aggressively pull. Use your voice.
I might do one of two rein backs to enforce a stop but even a partial step back is marked down in dressage so it isn’t something I would practice. However, it can be effective
I own this horse.
An extremely helpful exercise was Vera’s Magic Circles (I clinic with Vera Kessels). Do a 20m circle between B and E. When you cross center line, circle out 10m. When you hit B or E, circle in 10m. Just keep going on the circles and don’t get in any arguments - let the circles fix it.
Start in the trot (walk doesn’t have enough energy at first) and then add in canter after your 10m circles out (ie between the circle out and the wall). Do your down transition right before the circle out and do the 10m trot circle out immediately after your canters.
Live on these circles.
When they are better, start adding a renvers feeling to everything. Haunches out of the circle and outside bend. Eventually when she braces you can respond by asking for a step or two of renvers and fix it that way.
Only when you are here and the renvers moments are easy should you start trying halts. Walk around with a soft, long neck and try going in and out of the halt without any bracing. Start with only two or three per ride. But it’s fine to put the halts away for a while until your other work is flowing softly.
This process can take several weeks to really get right, but you should see little improvements each ride.
I don’t believe in using a heavier bit, or backing her up after each halt. That in my opinion is a recipe for a rearer, and it’s too confrontational and aggressive imo to put the horse in a learning mentality. She should be comfortable trying to understand you, not trying to protect herself from you, and I believe that a lot of heavy mouthedness is mentally the horse defending itself/protecting itself from the rider rather than reaching out to the rider and letting them in. If you ride aggressively you perpetuate the mental root cause.
Fix the contact going forward and flowing first and then do halts when you can have the conversation quietly without getting loud with your aids. The other way to think about it is that you fix the contact side to side (one rein at a time) first before you fix it front to back (both reins at a time).
When I say I had this horse I promise you I had this horse. These exercises really and truly work. Now he is light and soft and understands so much better. No more wrestling match!
Backing up after a halt is for horses that are blowing the halt idea off, ie - walking through it too far, or walking away too fast without a decent waiting period. It’s to be done non-confrontationally, more like a “you don’t know what I am going to ask for next, please pay better attention”.
It is NOT for the heavy horse, because they aren’t blowing through the idea of a halt, they are blowing through your hands which is an entirely different problem.
I use your circles all the time. It always starts out with some cry baby moments (wahh what do you MEAN I have to carry myself and be ready to balance in either direction!?!) but within two rounds the horse is soft, understanding, responsive. I use them whenever my young mare starts to say “ok, your turn to carry my head”. Nope, little lady, that will ALWAYS be your job.
I think this is an important distinction. Thank you for pointing it out. I think she has both issues, she makes her own decisions all the time.
Equitation Science’s cure for the “hard mouthed” horse is ground work. First, in a halter, teach the mare to halt off pressure rather than by following your feet - so pull on the lead but don’t stop walking (maybe slow your steps). You can reinforce this with a dressage whip in front of her chest. To walk again, push the rope/head forward and get her moving before you move your feet (tap with whip if need). Once she stops/goes off pressure rather than following your feet, use the bridle you plan to ride in. Again, make sure she is moving off pressure and not following your feet. If she is dull, use the dressage whip in front of the chest to create a sharper response. Make sure the halt or back is from a light rein aid…use the whip before you get into a tug of war. You don’t want your horse to get to the point she is bracing in fear of the bit (what a hard mouth is).
From there, when riding, a neck rope can also help with the halt. I know it sound stupid, but if they understand the tap with the dressage whip on the chest means “stop now” then this usually translates well to a neck rope - they can’t brace against a neck rope in the way they brace against a bit as it isn’t offensive.
This is a really good explanation. I hadn’t analyzed it but I think you have a great point that she is also unbalanced.
This makes a lot of sense. She is a big mare and can really move, and her rider didn’t ride often so there could have been some unbalanced heavy handedness on the reins.
I see what you are saying, I have done and still do groundwork, she used to blow through the halter, she has improved but still can ignore when the stimulation goes up.
There is nothing wrong with using a stronger bit that the horse will respond to provided it’s not used to “fix” the problems. My choice is to find a bit the horse will respond to when I use light rein aids, and then train the horse to carry themselves, respond to my other aids applied lightly, and respond to even lighter rein aids.
Using the stronger bit allows me to have the horse working correctly for a larger percentage of the ride, which develops strength, muscle and mental habits of working correctly instead of resisting. This use demands greater awareness from the rider as the “easier” ride can make it easier to push the horse beyond their current fitness for that degree of self carriage, which in turn will make the horse heavier and more resistant if pushed too far.
When I use a stronger bit my goal is to transition to a mild bit. The trap with strong bits is to say the horse is good with that new bit and carry on riding/showing without working on training to address the problem that prompted trying a new bit. That’s where you see the spiral of the horse/rider progressing to ever stronger bits.
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