Dee-ring or loose ring snaffle

[colorfan]

My mare has a very tough mouth, before me she was ridden in a chain bit. I have been trying to ride her in a Herm Sprenger French link loose ring.
I want to re-educate her to have a more responsive mouth. We are currently still in our walk phase of getting to know each other and me trying to learn what she knows and to get some riding fitness back.

Groundwork has really helped her learn to move off my leg but so far she is always behind my leg, tends to be overbent/rooting, usually after a bit I can get some steps on the bit.
Halt is non existent, although after a couple of harder than I’d like rein stop she is admitting my seat does mean something…so progress.
An acquaintance from another discipline explained to me how she prefers a dee ring and how I should probably switch to a stronger bit to help her learn to be softer in the mouth.

I have used loose ring for a long time as was taught its harder for a horse to hang on one or for a rider to hold a horse up with one. Thought in general they are a gentler bit.
My goal is to educate her mouth so we can have a quiet conversation instead of a yelling match.
Please advise. thank you.

[Jealoushe]

This education will come from your other aids and how good you are enforcing them and rewarding them. That being said I prefer the D ring for greenies or babies so it might be a good for a restart so to speak.

A horse can only lean or pull if there is something to pull into. Leg and a light hand will help educate her mouth more than a bit ever will.

[Janet]

Physics.

A D ring is harder to pull THROUGH the mouth, so better than a loose ring for teaching a green horse to steer with an opening rein.

With D ring the bit mouthpiece is free to rotate in the horses mouth. With a loose ring there is a definite preference for one particular orientation (the one you see when the bridle is hung up on a hook). For some horses and mouthpieces this makes a significant difference. For some it doesn’t.

But neither of these effects is likely to have much impact on turning a “tough” mouth into a responsive mouth. That has much more to do with HOW (especially timimg) you us your aids (legs and seat as well as hands).

[sascha]

@Janet

With D ring the bit mouthpiece is free to rotate in the horses mouth. With a loose ring there is a definite preference for one particular orientation (the one you see when the bridle is hung up on a hook).

?? This doesn’t make sense to me. The D ring will always get pulled back to the orientation where the widest (bulbous) part of the D is closest to the rider’s hand. It is more stable and is less able to rotate than a loose ring.

[Janet]

@sascha

The D ring will always get pulled back to the orientation where the widest (bulbous) part of the D is closest to the rider’s hand. It is more stable and is less able to rotate than a loose ring.

But the point is that there ISN’T a “widest part” in a D- ring.

Consider a D ring (Semicircle) where the distance from the mouthpiece (which is the center of the circle) is one inch from the circumference of the D. In other words, the corcle (of which the D is half) has a raius of 1". It is that SAME 1" from the mouthpiece to the D, whether the D is vertical or horizontal. So the mouthpiece can rotate without changing the distance from the mouthpiece to the cheekpiece, or the distance from the mouthpiece the the rein.

But with Loose ring, with a diameter of 2 inches (radius is one inch) the greatest distance is from the mouthpiece to the opposite side of the ring. With the bridle on the horse (no rider), gravity assures that the mouthpiece will hang from the opposite side of the ring. Once you add the rider, depending on the amount of rein pressure, the bit will “hang” opposite a point somewhere between the cheekpiece and the rein. It will not easily rotate (within the mouth) from that position.

[Mander]

@colorfan

An acquaintance from another discipline explained to me how she prefers a dee ring and how I should probably switch to a stronger bit to help her learn to be softer in the mouth.

Jealoushe is right re: stronger bit/milder bit - how you use it is vastly more important than what it is. Perhaps an extreme example, but I’ve seen a hundred horses get dull to whatever tie-down-double-twisted-wire-gag-hackamore-contraption is most fashionable these days with barrel racers. And half of them have told me they use that strong of a bit so their horse is “more responsive” to them and they can use their hands less (spoiler - they use their hands just as much with the new stronger bit ).

So on that front, I commend you for committing to a softer bit and re-educating your mare! I’d probably try them both and see if it feels like she has a preference - IMO they’re not so radically different from each other that you’d be “shooting yourself in the foot” per say to use one over the other. Soft hands, not pulling and being black and white with your aids are what will help you in the long run.

My only other reminder is to make sure you don’t let the pursuit of perfection overshadow the good! You might intend to get a downward transition or even a halt, but instead of PULLING and HAULING to get it DONE, if the only thing you get in response to an appropriate amount of pressure is a slight change in tempo, accept it and send her forward again and ask again in a few strides. Rinse and repeat.

[colorfan]

thank you :), rinse repeat… She so totally blew threw any rein I had no whoa whatsoever. I had done enough groundwork that I at least had some turn.

I am also using my seat combined with the fence haha to get some half halt.

Any other tips?

[sascha]

I’m sorry, that makes absolutely no sense. Any bit where the attachment of the ring to the mouthpiece is a hinge (Dee, eggbutt, full cheek) and not a rotating joint that allows movement in 2 directions instead of only one will be more stable in the horse’s mouth. They will be able to use their tongue to move the bit up (farther back (towards their molars) in their mouth but it will not change angle.

A loose ring allows the bit to swivel back to a certain degree as well as be moved up in the mouth.

Similarly, a mouthpiece which is not jointed (Mullen, straight bar) will be more stable than a jointed mouthpiece.

The more more moving parts, the less stable. More room for error, but also more room for the horse to play and for the rider to give more refined aids.

[Janet]

@sascha

I’m sorry, that makes absolutely no sense

I am sorry it doesn’t make sense to you.

I suggest you try an actual experiment.

Put on a bridle with a D-ring. Try moving the D ring and see what happens to the mouthpiece. NOT its location, that won’t change. But the direction the joint is pointing.

Then try the same thing with a loose ring.

[LilRanger]

For what it’s worth, @sascha and @Janet, I think you are saying the same thing in different ways.

[Warmblood1]

OP, what about using a full cheek instead? This would be the most supportive for when/if you need to do a one rein stop while working on your horse’s woah. Since you are teaching the horse to accept contact, I would use something other than a loose ring since a loose ring can create more movement and vibration with rein aids. Some horses prefer something more stable until they have accepted more contact with the bit.

Also, you might consider using a single jointed snaffle and then later graduating to a French link. A single jointed snaffle would give you increased pressure on the pallet of the mouth without it being a harsh bit.

[sascha]

@Janet

Try moving the D ring and see what happens to the mouthpiece.

Try an experiment. Imagine you are INSIDE the horse’s mouth. There is a rider on the horse’s back maintaining comfortable contact. The loosering is going to be far easier to fool around with when you only have the horse’s tongue to guide it. The Dee on the other hand isn’t going anywhere unless someone on the OUTSIDE of the horse’s mouth starts using the rings to rotate it or is riding with a very, extremely bad hand that hooks the corner of the dee and causes it to rotate.

Take a look at pictures of people riding in dee rings. They are never swivelled at some jaunty angle unless they are being used by someone who has got the horse in a pickle and ended up with a badly fitted rein caught on the corner where the straight part of the dee meets the round part.

The problem with the whole radius nonsense is that it doesn’t take into account that the radius lies across the horse’s tongue and when the bit is used correctly and not extremely badly, there is no purchase on the outside of the circle to turn it because the reins are not fixed at any point to the outside diameter. The bit is not free to move much at all.

Experiment part 2. Put each bit on a mouthy horse. Observe. The loose ring will quite possibly do all kinds of TINY acrobatics with the extra space for movement that the joint attachment affords. The dee ring will do even smaller acrobatics because it is free to move in only one direction.

There is no spindle attached to a motor at the radius of a dee ring. The only way it will easily turn is to act on the outside diameter of the ring. We attach our reins so that they cannot act of the outside diameter of the ring.

Does that make sense now?

[Jealoushe]

@colorfan

Any other tips?

When you half halt sink into the front of the saddle and breath out and really relax. If you half halt and get nothing, then halt. Ask to go forward again, half halt, if no response, halt. Then ask again. Repeat until you get the answer you want. This will take a lot of rides and repetition. Make sure you have a release and it’s not just a straight pull type when you half halt. Make sure to always check your half halt aid after the halt again. Only when the horse listens do you not halt. This is something to take with you throughout every ride for eternity going forward.

This horse is missing the very first basic step of training which is stop go. I suggest focusing on this solely until you have a half halt.

I just did a few lessons on RideIQ working on this as my greenie also has a strong dull mouth from the track. I always make sure if I feel her pull or balance at all that I give the rein, then leg into the hand until the pressure I want is there, then release. The minute it gets too heavy I close the leg and lift my hand and let go if needed.

So the one exercise I did was on a circle at trot, ask the horse to half halt and slow the trot to trot super slow for at least 3-5 strides, then go forward trot, then again half halt and back to super slow trot. Repeat multiple times both directions.

[Janet]

@sascha

There is no spindle attached to a motor at the radius of a dee ring. The only way it will easily turn is to act on the outside diameter of the ring. We attach our reins so that they cannot act of the outside diameter of the ring.

Does that make sense now?

Absolutely not.
I agree that the rein can’t change the orientation of the bit. That is not the point.

The horse’s tongue can, and does rotate the mouthpiece.

With a loose ring the mouthpiece will rotate back to the original orientation.

With a D ring, the mouthpiece can stay in the original orientation.

I agree that the D ring won’t rotate to the extreme positions. But it will allow the mouthpiece to rotate more than the loose ring.

[colorfan]

Great review of steps to follow, thx. This is pretty well what I have been doing, I have also been trying to work on transitions within the walk, last ride there was noticable improvement. Not there, just improvement.
It seems every ride she checks to see if I will correct her ignoring me…lol

[eightpondfarm]

@Warmblood1

OP, what about using a full cheek instead? This would be the most supportive for when/if you need to do a one rein stop while working on your horse’s woah.

Most of my horses get started on a full cheek snaffle. Those who can’t handle a broken bit get a mullen. IF ONLY there was a full-cheek mullen i’d be in heaven!

The double jointed aids giving a horse more subtle rein guidance. But i am never ‘there’ starting out. I have a new mustang i’m just starting on a bit, and the full cheek is just dandy for him. He’s graduated from bitless to fullcheek seamlessly.

It’s always a big day for me when i can graduate a horse from a fullcheek to an eggbutt. I’m slower than most folks doing this…but when i do, i already have a horse that’s working from my body and not from their mouth.

[outerbanks77]

A. If possible, get a consultation with a bit fitting specialist, or at least try to assess her mouth conformation (and any injuries, given past history), and then choose a bit that is mostly likely to be comfortable for her. If she is not tense due to trying to protect herself from the bit, she’ll be able to start interacting with the bit in a more healthy way and eventually be more willing to accept the rein aids.

In the meantime, and option might be riding her in a cavesson/snaffle “double bridle” setup so that you can use the extra rein if needed for control. It might even be advantageous to ride her off the cavesson and just let her carry the snaffle for awhile. Just an out of the box idea to consider.

[Jealoushe]

My girl is similar, if she has a few days off she’s back to 0 on her half halt haha just now is she starting to retain it. It’s taken a few weeks of working on them specifically to have made some progress.

[Jealoushe]

@outerbanks77

In the meantime, and option might be riding her in a cavesson/snaffle “double bridle” setup so that you can use the extra rein if needed for control. It might even be advantageous to ride her off the cavesson and just let her carry the snaffle for awhile. Just an out of the box idea to consider.

Do you mean curb rein?

I have to disagree, a double bridle is far too advanced for a horse who doesn’t have finessed aid in the hand. If anything, hauling on the curb would make their mouth harder.

[Christa_P]

I think they are suggesting a rein on the cavesson and a second snaffle rein on the bit. Not a curb rein.