Denoix hind shoes and hoof angles

[tipzythegreat]

Hi all-

Thanks in advance for your help. I’ve attached some pictures of my geldings recent shoe job. The short story is I’m stuck with this farrier and I’m wondering if some hind wedges might help or something so we can work through this to improve these angles.

My horse has chronic PSD and has had surgery. Right now (knock on wood) he’s going super. He wears denoix hind shoes and his left hind is prone to bullnosing. He’s right hind is worse injury wise.

I’m not an expert but the hind hoof with the white looks concerning to me. Maybe I’m wrong. What do you think?

FWIW- loved my last farrier but he won’t come out to my current farm. He says the hind shoes aren’t concerning. My farrier before that says he’s just too busy to take me on as a client. So I’m stuck with farrier #3 for now.

[Feathered_Feet]

These are not great angles for assessing, but they certainly don’t look encouraging. You’ve got some underrun heels (don’t feel bad, it’s an epidemic), some steep coronary band angles, and some pronounced bullnosing, so he’s probably NPA on at least some of those feet.

I strongly recommend baseline radiographs, at least lateral views, to know exactly what you’re dealing with.

Can you get better pictures? There are some good websites that describe how to take good hoof photos. I would also recommend posting a picture of your horse’s posture - looks like he stands pretty camped under (which would be very typical with underrun heels, bullnosing, and NPA).

To answer your immediate question, yes, wedges would probably make him much more comfortable. They won’t fix the issue (which comes from the trim), but it might relieve some of the pressure.

[tipzythegreat]

[tipzythegreat]

[tipzythegreat]

Sorry – had trouble with the pictures loading. Thanks SO much for your reply. I hope these are better. It’s tough to take hoof pics in fly season! LOL

[fivestrideline]

Yikes… those are some wonky feet. Is your farrier dubbing the toe or is the horse NPA? That’s some dramatic bullnosing going on.

Be aware that in general, wedging a bad trim can put incredible strain on the suspensory and other soft tissues, rather than helping the body by correcting angles. The trim has to be good for anything to work.

[Bonnie2]

The problem with critiquing pictures is that it is easy to say this or that is wrong. Much harder to take a foot that has been growing for 4 or 6 or 8 weeks and head it back in the direction you want without changing it so much the horse is sore. No these pictures are not ideal. The bullnosing does ease the break over but doesn’t address the npa. I would be inclined to shoe the hinds fuller in the heels to give him more support (ie bigger shoes). If he is going well currently, I wouldn’t do wedge pads. More a short term fix or diagnostic tool than a long term answer. My sympathies, farrier issues are something we can all relate to!

[tipzythegreat]

Thanks for your feedback guys. His feet have always been a bit wonky, but I am pretty confident the farrier dubbed the toe on his hinds. That being said, he’s prone to NPA in his left hind and dragging off his right hind toe. He also is a serial tripper – but that stopped with farrier #3

Hopefully this helps as I talk about them, lol –
Farrier #1: Original farrier, current farrier
Farrier #2: Expensive farrier, cannot take me back as a client
Farrier #3, Favorite farrier, will not come to current barn

I have old pictures from when I switched from farrier #1 to farrier #2. I will attach these in a reply. Farrier #1 was constantly making my horse sore after a trim – I think my horse was sore and the farrier was not patient so they’d fight and make my horse more sore. This was why I switched to farrier #2 – Farrier #1 was not willing to listen. My horse went OK for farrier #2 but was handled much more gently.

I moved my horse and ended up with farrier #3 (farrier #2 wouldn’t come to that facility). Farrier #3 re-used pads and shoes entirely too long in my opinion, but my horse was going GREAT. Right now, he’s going pretty good but I feel like he’s starting to get heavy on his forehand. It’s been 1 week with this trim from farrier #1.

I can definitely order a bigger shoe for the next time – but the problem is they are denoix aluminum shoes so they can be very wide and cannot be “fitted”. I did feel these shoes looked too short. My old farrier set them back much further. (I’ll attach the pics)

He was wearing wedge pads 1 year ago from farrier #2. He continued wearing those wedges until about April of this year (seriously the same wedge pads…) Farrier #3 put him in flat pads and not wedge pads around April (I didn’t know this until last week). I don’t know if Farrier #3 felt they weren’t needed or just forgot. (He’s super forgetful and has messed things up before…)

I’ll order one size up Denoix shoe and ask the farrier to NOT nub the toe. Sound good? Do you guys have an inclination on the wedges? The left hind is always trying to go NPA and we’ve struggled with it for years. The wedge seemed to be the only thing to stop it.

Thanks for all your help guys – seriously. I’ve been laying awake thinking about what to do. I don’t like farrier #1’s work but it’s political and he’s really been buddy-buddy to me. He’s fast and affordable, but I don’t want my horse crippled!!! It will be very hard to get a different farrier inside this particular barn, so I’m REALLY hoping I can make a few changes to keep him comfortable. If he’s unwilling to listen to me and work with me then it’ll be much easier to fire him again. I am also present for EVERY appointment so there’s no fighting with my horse this time around.

[tipzythegreat]

[fivestrideline]

Can you haul to farrier #3? That seems like the best option. It doesn’t really matter if they recycle shoes if the horse is comfy . Poor angles cause damage, and that damage is compounding. At a certain point, you can’t undo it. Since the horse already has PSD, I’d be doing EVERYTHING in my power to fix those feet.

The fact that he stopped tripping with farrier 3, and is back to being uncomfy with farrier 1 (heavy on forehand) is a huge sign you probably need to change. Or take over the hoof care yourself. I wouldn’t tolerate farrier 1, personally, politics or not. BTDT, I bought a truck and trailer about it.

[tipzythegreat]

I don’t think I could haul because I don’t have the set up or the place to haul to.

I can beg him, and offer to pay a premium. However, farrier #3 said the pictures looked fine to him… and that’s why I came here. He wasn’t concerned. BUT they don’t look right to me. Could I be imagining that my horse isn’t moving as good? Maybe.

I figured I’d give farrier #1 a shot – and I don’t like what I see. And it seems like you guys don’t like it either. I am going to do some asking around and see if I can find other recommended farriers to come out.

[fivestrideline]

Hmm, farrier 3 doesn’t have a barn nearby they do? Or a home farm?

Farrier issues are the worst. I’m going through it myself, as a symptom of the frequency at which I move states.

[tipzythegreat]

He does NOT – but his brother does shoeing as well. They help each other out.

I have two other farriers I can contact, with no guarantee they’d come out. And I will ask what they think of the set up. I will also beg farrier #3 to come out, or ask if his brother would.

Part of the issue is that farrier #1 is family at my current barn, LOL. He does every single horse there and when I had farrier #2 there was some tension and demands for proof of insurance and things like that. So I have to be careful bringing someone, and some of them may not want to come because of that. It’s like a turf war.

Moving barns isn’t an option for me right now either. There’s only one I would consider and they don’t have availability right now. Also I just moved and don’t want to disrupt my horse’s life again until perhaps the Spring.

Farrier issues do suck. And so many people don’t think the trim is important.

[tipzythegreat]

An update for y’all:

• 2 farriers have said the shoes & trims looked fine

• 3 farriers are too busy to take on new clients (1 did look at pics and felt the toes were too long)

• 1 farrier agreed with me that there was bullnosing and low heels

• 1 is willing to take us on and has fair pricing. She’s an associate of my friend’s highly recommended farrier

• 4 farriers have open inquiries from myself & my friend, including farrier #3

In total, we’ve reached out to 9 different farriers.

(My friend at my barn is also willing to sync trim cycles and try whichever farrier we decide on )

[tipzythegreat]

Hi everyone!

Wondering your opinion on the new farrier and new trim. She hammered the toe long in his hind shoes instead of the denoix. She said the denoix just really didn’t fit him. He’s wearing flat pads on his hinds to start and she did mention the one being broken back and it taking time. She was super nice and reasonably priced. He did ride a little tight but his toes were a mile long before before trim

[ndirish07]

My horse has had PSD in both hinds and surgery on both legs. After the first surgery he stayed in the suspensory shoes with the toe plate. I was advised not to use a wedge pad on PSD. The toe plates encourage the heel to sink, not the toe, and offloads the SL and transfers to the DDFT. I was told wedge pads are the opposite of what you’re trying to do mechanically and I’d be confused if the goal is to keep the suspensory shoe and add wedges. Is that what your vet/surgeon recommended?

The toe plates didn’t prevent him from straining his other hind. So I switched farriers and we’ve tweaked the suspensory shoe idea into something better for him. The plates made him slide and he felt so weak behind. This is working a 100% better for him.

[tipzythegreat]

@ndirish07

we’ve tweaked the suspensory shoe idea into something better for him

I’d love to know more about this!

Also this is VERY interesting. I was never advised one way or another on the wedges. It makes sense.

My vet and surgeon have recommended denoix shoes during rehab and usually for x amount of months. After that, I’ve been mostly able to keep him in a modified shoe (the farrier forged/welded a large toe piece). The wedge we added because his left hind bull noses. Only his right hind had the surgery also, though the left was also damaged to a lesser extent.

This has been a very long journey – he was diagnosed in December 2018 and I rehabbed him from a walk twice. In November of 2021 we did the suspensory surgery. He was in wedges for probably all of 2023. He’s been in flat pads the majority of 2024 – I don’t imagine those counteract the suspensory shoe idea… but does it?

[fivestrideline]

Was there a reason for the tiny shoe? Even the hinds are fit very small and close on the heel. I would expect some support under the back of the foot. The breakover and shoe fit to that flare also raise questions for me, but I try to be very patient with a new farrier doing a horse for the first time. Especially a horse with pathology and rehab needs that involve therapeutic shoeing.

Wedging is counterindicated for PSD/suspensory issues, AFAIK.

ETA: I’m not a farrier or vet. Just an owner!

[LazyA1]

His stance indicates hind end discomfort.

Does he have collapsed frogs? Nothing can help you if your farrier can’t trim, but maybe he could manage some frog support pads. Not the wedge ones, the flat ones. PLEXUS pads are the best.

For what it’s worth, I’ve had two horses that stood like that when I got them. One was lame from suspensory when I bought him, but my vet said she could fix him with surgery and she did. I have a magnificent farrier who knows how to trim, and that horse ended up doing great barefoot behind. The other one is barefoot behind also and doing great. Some farriers have the genius to trim, many don’t.

[tipzythegreat]

@fivestrideline

Was there a reason for the tiny shoe? Even the hinds are fit very small and close on the heel

No reason (the farrier must have thought they fit?) I will see what her next trim looks like. His last trim was not good at all, so I’m hoping the next one will be looking better.