Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

[kirbydog]

@TheMoo

Agree and I have such a TB that most people think is a WB (even vets at first glance) and has the step, jump and movement to be competitive. It’s just going to take more work to do it without calming agents or depo. I’m okay with that. I love the hunters but do wish the style would go back to the era when Ox Ridge and Fairfield Hunt were in their prime.

There are very good trainers in H/J land that don’t use short cuts. Unfortunately, the bad are publicized more than the good. I also think, a lot of people are like myself. Love the hunters but hate the machine it’s become. The show season is never ending to the point where one can’t call it a show season.

Yes it never ends! Used to be after the “indoors” it was done. Now more shows are being offered. No thanks. After indoors, hair coats grow out, manes grow a bit to recover, pasture time increases. The November comes, and stirrups come off! Says the evilly grinning trainer
One more thought…several years ago, we had some open stalls and rented them to a dressage trainer. It was fascinating to watch her ride her upper level horses. That girl moved on, but ever since we have had a dressage trainer come around a few times a month to help with the left over clients and sit on some of those hunters. It helps with the sluggy WBs and helps with the Tbs to get their balance to the rear and understand flat work. Riders too! I highly recommend it

[findeight]

@TheMoo

I got all that. Instant gratification has zero place in the horse world and I wish trainers would stop supporting that. My only point was that the monied clients still want a short cut and some trainers are only too happy to oblige because money.

IME the less “monied” clients are just as bad as the rich ones and maybe worse as they are more likely to have a less suitable horse to fit their lesser budget and try to push a less successful trainer that cannot afford to lose their business into caving to their demands for a calming substance. Most trainers don’t support any of this but need to support themselves, it’s not a simple decision. Big reason USEF stepped in to get some hard statistics and make the decision.

Dont think many knowingly give anything harmful but get so wrapped up in doing something, anything, to solve performance problems in the horse and placate it’s owner/rider, they forget the welfare of the horse. More concerned with solving their problems then facing any truths about themselves and what they are doing. Marketing efforts for things like PP and peer pressure to use other substances create dependency in the owner/rider to use something, anything, to fix the horse so they can get on it.

What really is sick is the number of young riders who won’t get on unless the horse gets whatever…that’s our next generation of owners and riders.

[Ghazzu]

@lindsay.anne

Can we get a little productivity in this thread? Perhaps with legal alternatives?

It was a horribly flawed science experience that a 6th grader could have conducted better. Truly another case of how the few corruptions that overdosed their horses caused it to be illegal for those who follow veterinary instructions.

Legal alternatives to what?
Suppression of estrus in mares?----->altrenogest
Behavior modification drugs?-----> Prohibited

“GR 410. 1.a
Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony…”

[Ghazzu]

@TheMoo

ETA: I didn’t buy my mare with an eye towards a specific discipline. I just loved the whole package. So if we end up just doing dressage that’s fine. If we make it into the hunter ring that’s great. If we never step foot in a show ring and just keep progressing I am good with that too.

When I sent my young (Arab) stallion off to the trainer to be started under saddle, he asked me what I wanted to do with him.
I told him to let me know, and prayed I wouldn’t have to go buy western show tack or a cart.

[Ghazzu]

@mvp

Yes, but so what? The rest of the argument I made matters far more.

And the tough part is that it’s hard for the “also-ran” pro to hear from the imperfect-riding client, with the imperfect horse that they could afford that the client wants her trainer to get the vet to give them some X or Y because her friend riding with the BNT wins a lot and gets a level of customer care that includes quietly and vaguely “prepping” the horse before she gets to the show.

I do not envy the honest trainers.(ETA: who constitute a bigger percentage than one might think from reading these threads) They are required to choose between ethics and income on a regular basis, and it can become exhausting.
Honestly, the trope of blissfully unaware owners being defrauded by trainers hiding a needle and syringe behind their back is not so common as one might think.

[RAyers]

@lindsay.anne

Can we get a little productivity in this thread? Perhaps with legal alternatives?

It was a horribly flawed science experience that a 6th grader could have conducted better. Truly another case of how the few corruptions that overdosed their horses caused it to be illegal for those who follow veterinary instructions.

Uh, it was peer reviewed, published, case controlled study. I’m not sure how you can even imagine it was “flawed” science. The statistical power is sufficient and the methodology was sound.

Or are you speaking of the presentation by the “pro” depo group that presented public opinion/perception and trainer anecdotes?

[findeight]

Now, now RAyers, lets not muddy the discussion of how one is supposed to get ones horse into the show ring now Depo is banned with facts…God forbid we put the attention on horse welfare instead of solve the what am I going to do with my horse now issues.

[CanteringCarrot]

@findeight

IME the less “monied” clients are just as bad as the rich ones and maybe worse as they are more likely to have a less suitable horse to fit their lesser budget and try to push a less successful trainer that cannot afford to lose their business into caving to their demands for a calming substance. Most trainers don’t support any of this but need to support themselves, it’s not a simple decision. Big reason USEF stepped in to get some hard statistics and make the decision.

Dont think many knowingly give anything harmful but get so wrapped up in doing something, anything, to solve performance problems in the horse and placate it’s owner/rider, they forget the welfare of the horse. More concerned with solving their problems then facing any truths about themselves and what they are doing. Marketing efforts for things like PP and peer pressure to use other substances create dependency in the owner/rider to use something, anything, to fix the horse so they can get on it.

What really is sick is the number of young riders who won’t get on unless the horse gets whatever…that’s our next generation of owners and riders.

This last bit, I know a rider like this. I can’t wrap my head around it. If I have to literally watch to make sure my horse received a proper dose or ate every last bit of its calming supplements before I ride, it’s not the horse for me. Maybe not even the sport for me. Maybe it’s harmless to the animal, maybe not. This riders horse is practically dead, but if he even so much as flicks an ear, shakes his head, looks at something, or you know… Acts like a living thing, it’s too much. This shouldn’t be what this sport is about.

[mvp]

@kirbydog

Are you saying only billionaires and millionaires are winning? I will have to respectfully disagree with you.
I, and many of my colleagues, have shown at a pretty high level, with great success for many years without the use of calming/sedative agents. We win at good shows. A lot.

My clients run from comfortably middle class to uber wealthy. I take the time, as much as it takes, to find an appropriate horse, within the budget. Its hard sometimes, and expectations must be tempered, but it can be done.

The horses themselves must be allowed to be who they are. To spicey? More flatwork in the morning. Still too spicey? Become a jumper. Cant stay competitive at 3’6? Win at 3’ . With hard work, thoughtfulness, and horsemanship, a talented horse can find its place in the showring, even if he/she can be difficult, it all just takes time.

I agree that the western pleasure horses, as well as the halter horses look lame and, well freakish to my eye

Are there super wealthy people showing hunters? Of course! But the larger body of competitors are hard working, horse loving people who show because they love it. It’s not just about ribbons for mist of them. Are there spoiled asshats who want to win st all costs? Yes, in every aspect of every Equine (or other) sport.

FWIW, I have been sent horses, or had them come into my program the need, ahem…help. MDA worried me, as I really dont like needles, it’s very viscous and gave them a sore neck. The mares went on regumate, the boys got their s**t together through training. The ones that I was told wanted PP, same thing. And that stuff is gross…it stinks like rotten turkey, and frankly I dont think it did anything, waste of $25

A second person to miss the point.

No, I didn’t say only millionaires and billionaires are winning.

If you’ll kindly reread my post and follow along the post to which I was responding, I think you’ll see what I was saying.

The short synopsis is that I was responding to someone who supported the idea that it would be “business as usual”-- no need to think the breeding or importing market would change because folks can rent paddocks at the big shows, buy farms near them (e.g. Wellington, I suppose) and kids in the Big Eq world can ride a little more spice because they have done GPs anyway.

All of that sounded great, but superlatively expensive and so it would logically follow that “nothing needs to change” for the tax bracket who can afford that. And-- as you pointed out and so did I-- that’s not a large proportion of the showing world.

You can read the rest of my post if you are interested.

[kirbydog]

@mvp

A second person to miss the point.

No, I didn’t say only millionaires and billionaires are winning.

If you’ll kindly reread my post and follow along the post to which I was responding, I think you’ll see what I was saying.

The short synopsis is that I was responding to someone who supported the idea that it would be “business as usual”-- no need to think the breeding or importing market would change because folks can rent paddocks at the big shows, buy farms near them (e.g. Wellington, I suppose) and kids in the Big Eq world can ride a little more spice because they have done GPs anyway.

All of that sounded great, but superlatively expensive and so it would logically follow that “nothing needs to change” for the tax bracket who can afford that. And-- as you pointed out and so did I-- that’s not a large proportion of the showing world.

You can read the rest of my post if you are interested.

Peace. We are on the same side.

[snaffle635]

Great article discussing some of the issues I’ve been struggling to understand. For example, why is it ok to manage a mare’s behavior with Regumate, but it’s not ok to manage a gelding’s behavior with drugs? Why isn’t castration prohibited as its main purpose is to change a stallion’s behavior?

I found some answers to those questions here:

https://www.chronofhorse.com/article/usef-to-examine-rules-on-depo-provera-and-regu-mate

Turns out these decisions are made by balancing the idea of fair competition with protecting the best interests of our horses.

I thought USEF was disallowing MPA based on the fair competition provision, but in further thinking about it and re-reading the press release, it appears to be disallowed as being in the best interest of the horses.

[twelvebelles]

If these were human athletes taking drugs to help them focus in training and competition, we would frown at that and call them cheaters. But somehow it is okay to do it to horses in order to achieve whatever personal goals we have? To me, that is not fair to the horses. There seem to be a lot of overhorsed amateurs out there with trainers who think it is just fine, and they are the ones who have led us to this outcome. If you aren’t a good enough rider to handle your undrugged horse, then get a better trainer to teach you, get an easier and maybe less athletic mount, or change your goals. Do not, however, drug the horse to make your personal goals achievable.

[mvp]

@kirbydog

Peace. We are on the same side.

I know. I’m writing only because so much of illegal drugging is forwarded by imprecise language and thinking. It doesn’t even serve our side to point out that a whole bunch of rank-and-file horse trainers are honest; that billionaires, too, have to ride without stirrups in November; to point out that better turn out at shows can be solved by buying a $15M farm in Wellington so your horses can Netflix and chill while on the circuit.

And the looseness in the discussion of drugs! Conflating vaccinations with Bute with Depo-Provera; arguing that if humans feel entitled to their ibuprofen, wine and Xanax, then their horses should get to have that, too; to completely disregarding the part of the D & M rules about anything given with the intent to enhance performance (and now we’ll get confused again about bute and Xanax) and asking only whether or not the substance “will test.”

Seriously, I think people who want to cheat are getting a ton of mileage about of being intellectually lazy. I think it might be on purpose. Maybe it comes from non-horsey clients. Either way, not understanding the broad cultural commitment to not understanding D & M rules puts good, careful and knowledgable horsemen in a bind. So it actually serves the honest, not BNT-cum-vet trainer to be very rigorous in thinking about all this. There may not be anyone else who will bother and thereby advocate for the horses. I fear we are in a shrinking minority.

[hoopoe]

@atl_hunter

Using that logic, anyone giving their horse a standard vaccine is also drugging their horse, since the FDA classifies vaccines as drugs. So, yeah, I drug my horse!! As I should. Whoo hoo!!

they classify them as drugs to sort them from devices for regulatory and inspection rules and regulations

[mvp]

Oh, and a PS. I think I just read some Science that explained how Depo-Provera is one of those (synthetic) hormones that does cross the blood/brain barrier and attaches to GABA receptors. I believe that is the same way Xanax works. And after those few details, we are above my pay grade. But I did read some actual Science to this effect. I think it was in the USEF’s announcement about the ban. Look there first if you want to check my reporting on the physiological stuff.

So srsly, folks, do not tell me that you feel entitled to show your horse on Xanax and call that “not performance enhancing” for your hunter when you sing the praises of Xanax for calming your showing nerves.

[atl_hunter]

@twelvebelles

If these were human athletes taking drugs to help them focus in training and competition, we would frown at that and call them cheaters. But somehow it is okay to do it to horses in order to achieve whatever personal goals we have? To me, that is not fair to the horses. There seem to be a lot of overhorsed amateurs out there with trainers who think it is just fine, and they are the ones who have led us to this outcome. If you aren’t a good enough rider to handle your undrugged horse, then get a better trainer to teach you, get an easier and maybe less athletic mount, or change your goals. Do not, however, drug the horse to make your personal goals achievable.

Actually, the NCAA allows medical exceptions for Ritalin and Adderall, both of which help them focus in life in general, and therefore, training and competition.

[TheMoo]

@atl_hunter

Actually, the NCAA allows medical exceptions for Ritalin and Adderall, both of which help them focus in life in general, and therefore, training and competition.

So what medical reason is given for geldings? A no kidding medical diagnosis? Adderall and Ritalin are prescribed for a no kidding medical issue. If athletes, and I believe two riders got sat down by the FEI for adderall in their system with zero medical documents on file, can be sanctioned for a lack of diagnosis I don’t get why it’s okay to do that to our horses. I feel the NCAA would do the same for those who share prescriptions.

[Ghazzu]

@atl_hunter

Actually, the NCAA allows medical exceptions for Ritalin and Adderall, both of which help them focus in life in general, and therefore, training and competition.

I would imagine that comes only after one obtains a medical diagnosis and associated paperwork.
Since there is no peer-reviewed documentation for ADHD in the performance horse, it is somewhat irrelevant.

[Darkwave]

@Ghazzu

I would imagine that comes only after one obtains a medical diagnosis and associated paperwork.
Since there is no peer-reviewed documentation for ADHD in the performance horse, it is somewhat irrelevant.

Tangent, but here is a link to the required paperwork for a human athlete to get a therapeutic use exemption for ADHD medication: https://www.usada.org/wp-content/uploads/TUE_guidance_add-adhd.pdf

As you can see, there are extensive requirements.

[2bayboys]

@wondrlnd77

Forgive me if these topics have been covered earlier in thread… it’s possible that I’ve missed some…
I am not naive- I come from the pre-depo days, and there has always been something in vogue to calm horses, from reserpine to Dex to Carolina Gold. I wonder now how this effects the market- how many ponies and Ammy horses just became unsuitable for their jobs?

Some of those now “unsuitable” horses will move into the market where the lack of a lead change is a career killer but the need for a cc of ace to get into the ring is merely a minor inconvenience. If you’re in an area with a strong and competitive local show game, you’ll see there are trainers making plenty of money using just this business model.