Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

[punchy]

@findeight

Ummmm. No. None of the above. Why the heck would the European export market dry up? They sell them and ship them and don’t care how they are managed once across the ocean. They also continue to produce more suitable animals at lesser costs, like it or not.

I said the import market, not the export market.

[poltroon]

@Forgetmenot

So, I my horse got depo (5cc about every 4 weeks) because he can occasionally be herd bound, and does also act "studish ". It did not sedate him, just made him more focused and ready to work.

I don’t mean to single you out, but rhetorically, to the group… would you give your son a female birth control injection before each of his exams because it made him more focused and ready to work in high school? High school, after all, has a lifelong impact on his future.

And probably no one’s done a study showing harmful effects…

[CanteringCarrot]

@punchy

I said the import market, not the export market.

Their export market is your import market. Europe exports to America. America imports from Europe.

[lindsay.anne]

Can we get a little productivity in this thread? Perhaps with legal alternatives?

It was a horribly flawed science experience that a 6th grader could have conducted better. Truly another case of how the few corruptions that overdosed their horses caused it to be illegal for those who follow veterinary instructions.

[TheMoo]

@lindsay.anne

Can we get a little productivity in this thread? Perhaps with legal alternatives?

It was a horribly flawed science experience that a 6th grader could have conducted better. Truly another case of how the few corruptions that overdosed their horses caused it to be illegal for those who follow veterinary instructions.

If you own a mare that needs it, regumate. If you own a “studdish” gelding proper management and training. Or find a more suitable horse.

Anything given with the intent to “calm” the horse is going against the spirit of the rule.

It doesn’t matter if the horse could be a world beater if they were just a little less spicy. That horse obviously is not a good fit for today’s hunters. Pick another discipline or spend the time training without worrying about where the horse should be by x years old.

[endlessclimb]

@lindsay.anne

Can we get a little productivity in this thread? Perhaps with legal alternatives?

It was a horribly flawed science experience that a 6th grader could have conducted better. Truly another case of how the few corruptions that overdosed their horses caused it to be illegal for those who follow veterinary instructions.

Well it was being used as off label for both halting estrus (which it didn’t) and calming down geldings, so what veterinary instruction are you referencing?

Maybe if you replace “veterinary” with “trainer” it would be more realistic.

[mvp]

@kirbydog

Why would you think any of the above would happen? None of it makes sense

1. No the European market won’t dry up; whether you chose to believe it or not, many of those horses are as quiet for real, as they appear to be. WRT the big slow stride, that’s the way God or the breeder made them. They simply don’t have any need to gallop around all that fast in the hunter ring, because the stride is so much bigger, it’s easier. They are purpose bred to jump, or do dressage, whereas a Tb is bred to run on a straight line

2. Hunter judging won’t change. Why would it? Again, if you have never ridden or trained a high end WB hunter (or jumper for that matter) you really can’t comment on the ride. It’s apples to oranges.

3. Many of your “big box” shows have paddocks to rent for the shows. Whenever we travel to Kentucky, Ocala, Traverse, etc, we rent a paddock. It is the best form of quieting a horse there is. And a good reward for a job well done. At a lot of the big show venues, people will purchase a farmette to bring their horses home to between classes.

4. If you honestly believe that kids like Brian Moggre, or the girls that did so well this year at the Medal finals won’t be able to ride because of the ban, you honestly have no clue what you’re talking about. Most of the top kids have competed at the GP level, so I think they can handle a little mareishness

All of the “business as usual” will proceed, then, for the very well-off. But for the folks who can’t afford the horse with beauty and brains? Don’t get to ride all the way to GP before coming back down to compete in a junior equitation division, don’t go to destinations shows, stay for weeks and even buy farms there?

I think those folks (and their horses) just had life get harder. But really, this has always been the case. You can buy horses who are the genuine article hunter, but the extraordinary combination of mind and body that he is will be clear to anyone by the time he’s started under saddle and he will be expensive his whole life until he goes lame. So lots of people will be buying the still sound, good moving, but not-quite-easy-in-the-mind horse and try to make a go of it. Heck, they are already doing this with more and less success. When those people run out of time, skill, knowledge, turnout, money for more training, they’ll add in whatever additional form of “prep” they can. And that’s a rational decision (albeit not legal, ethical or otherwise right) in that situation.

So the thing to consider about all this is what happens to the vast majority of people who can’t buy all the turnout, great-quality horseflesh, experience at those big shows and the rest that makes the status quo work?

By the way, you could write about the Western Pleasure world along the same lines. There really are horses who have that naturally (unnatural-looking) “slow-legged” way of moving. I have seen them in person and it’s weird, but real and not produced by schooling or drugs. And they were selectively bred for that, just as the European horses are the product of intense and purposeful selective breeding. But many, many people outside of WP world-- I’ll bet some of the people reading this thread right now-- think that there is rampant drugging or worse kinds of abuse behind that. And if you told them that some of those horses were getting there honestly, they’d still object that many more a having their heads tied up for hours or being loped for hours and all the rest. And they would (and have) called for changed in judging standards as the best, “top down” way to correct a job description that arguably does work for those top horses and those who can afford them, but which does not work for the vast majority of people and horses out there.

Are you sure you want to make the same argument for the hunters because billionaires can still compete and win without drugs?

[TheMoo]

@mvp

Are you sure you want to make the same argument for the hunters because billionaires can still compete and win without drugs?

If you think the billionaires/monied riders don’t drug, use perfect prep, etc despite being able to afford the hack winner at WEF you are woefully mistaken. Those BNT’s with the billionaire clients are who people follow when it comes to “prep.” I can think of several people right now constantly winning blues at the largest shows who have been suspended for drug violations.

[mvp]

@TheMoo

If you own a mare that needs it, regumate. If you own a “studdish” gelding proper management and training. Or find a more suitable horse.

Anything given with the intent to “calm” the horse is going against the spirit of the rule.

It doesn’t matter if the horse could be a world beater if they were just a little less spicy. That horse obviously is not a good fit for today’s hunters. Pick another discipline or spend the time training without worrying about where the horse should be by x years old.

I own “that mare” and I can speak to this a bit.

1. I bought her to be a dressage horse-- the sensitiveness and forward-thinkingness (the traits that have combined in the past to make her scare little children and old ladies in a crowded schooling ring)-- will be necessary in her career. This mare would be a square peg in a round hole in the hunter ring and I knew that from the beginning.

What that means is that, honest-to-God, I did not buy her with the intention to train her well enough to produce a good hunter round and to accept the really “hands off” ride that she’d have there. I can ride her a lot more closely as a dressage horse and keep her mentally “right with me” more easily. If I were a superbly talented rider, I’ll bet I could teach this mare to still stay intently focused on me as we jumped around or in the hack, too. But it would take a crap-ton of talent from me and work.

2. That means that this mare has to be more broke than would an easier-minded horse. She has to know more. She has to tolerate more and stay focused on the job. I don’t mind the process. In fact, that’s what I own horses for-- the long journey from green and uncertain to becoming my partner. And, like all horses who are “a little much” when they are green, those traits will help her later, if I can properly channel them.

3… I think it would be great if everyone would read, understand and behave in accordance with that second half of the D&M rules about the illegality of anything given to a horse with the intention of enhancing performance. The good, old American pragmatism that has everyone giving anything so long as it doesn’t test and feeling like sportsman is appalling.

I say, this, too, because this attitude undermines the one thing I like about the hunter division-- the way the calmness from the horse is supposed to come from him understanding his job. And, truly, the original contest was about which horse would KEEP YOU SAFE in the field on any given Sunday morning. The horse was supposed to educated, not naturally quiet, completely tuned into his game and keeping the two of your upright, not drugged and out of it to any extent. Again, this was about making a great horse where there was an important job to do (packing you around, kinda drunk and tired, if not hung-over), not just buying the natural athlete with a good mind.

Anyone who misses that wonderful experience of having a horse do something easily for the first time after it had been hard for him in the past is missing one of the peak experiences in a life spent with horses. The whole hunter division will let you chase that experience and produce it in your jumping horses, if you let it.

[TheMoo]

@mvp

I own “that mare” and I can speak to this a bit.

1. I bought her to be a dressage horse-- the sensitiveness and forward-thinkingness (the traits that have combined in the past to make her scare little children and old ladies in a crowded schooling ring)-- will be necessary in her career. This mare would be a square peg in a round hole in the hunter ring and I knew that from the beginning.

What that means is that, honest-to-God, I did not buy her with the intention to train her well enough to produce a good hunter round and to accept the really “hands off” ride that she’d have there. I can ride her a lot more closely as a dressage horse and keep her mentally “right with me” more easily. If I were a superbly talented rider, I’ll bet I could teach this mare to still stay intently focused on me as we jumped around or in the hack, too. But it would take a crap-ton of talent from me and work.

2. That means that this mare has to be more broke than would an easier-minded horse. She has to know more. She has to tolerate more and stay focused on the job. I don’t mind the process. In fact, that’s what I own horses for-- the long journey from green and uncertain to becoming my partner. And, like all horses who are “a little much” when they are green, those traits will help her later, if I can properly channel them.

3… I think it would be great if everyone would read, understand and behave in accordance with that second half of the D&M rules about the illegality of anything given to a horse with the intention of enhancing performance. The good, old American pragmatism that has everyone giving anything so long as it doesn’t test and feeling like sportsman is appalling.

I say, this, too, because this attitude undermines the one thing I like about the hunter division-- the way the calmness from the horse is supposed to come from him understanding his job. And, truly, the original contest was about which horse would KEEP YOU SAFE in the field on any given Sunday morning. The horse was supposed to educated, not naturally quiet, completely tuned into his game and keeping the two of your upright, not drugged and out of it to any extent. Again, this was about making a great horse where there was an important job to do (packing you around, kinda drunk and tired, if not hung-over), not just buying the natural athlete with a good mind.

Anyone who misses that wonderful experience of having a horse do something easily for the first time after it had been hard for him in the past is missing one of the peak experiences in a life spent with horses. The whole hunter division will let you chase that experience and produce it in your jumping horses, if you let it.

I love this post. I own that mare too. While she would make a very nice hunter and has a great brain, she’s not there yet. So I take dressage lessons and jumping lessons. We are a work in progress and my favorite trainers make no mention of regumate or depo.

Her first cycle of the season is painful for her. My vet did a work up to make sure it wasn’t more than a painful cycle. She just gets the time off. I enjoy the process and have no intention at the moment to sell her so I am in no rush to get her in the ring for the AA’s or the AO’s.

ETA: I didn’t buy my mare with an eye towards a specific discipline. I just loved the whole package. So if we end up just doing dressage that’s fine. If we make it into the hunter ring that’s great. If we never step foot in a show ring and just keep progressing I am good with that too.

[kirbydog]

@mvp

All of the “business as usual” will proceed, then, for the very well-off. But for the folks who can’t afford the horse with beauty and brains? Don’t get to ride all the way to GP before coming back down to compete in a junior equitation division, don’t go to destinations shows, stay for weeks and even buy farms there?

I think those folks (and their horses) just had life get harder. But really, this has always been the case. You can buy horses who are the genuine article hunter, but the extraordinary combination of mind and body that he is will be clear to anyone by the time he’s started under saddle and he will be expensive his whole life until he goes lame. So lots of people will be buying the still sound, good moving, but not-quite-easy-in-the-mind horse and try to make a go of it. Heck, they are already doing this with more and less success. When those people run out of time, skill, knowledge, turnout, money for more training, they’ll add in whatever additional form of “prep” they can. And that’s a rational decision (albeit not legal, ethical or otherwise right) in that situation.

So the thing to consider about all this is what happens to the vast majority of people who can’t buy all the turnout, great-quality horseflesh, experience at those big shows and the rest that makes the status quo work?

By the way, you could write about the Western Pleasure world along the same lines. There really are horses who have that naturally (unnatural-looking) “slow-legged” way of moving. I have seen them in person and it’s weird, but real and not produced by schooling or drugs. And they were selectively bred for that, just as the European horses are the product of intense and purposeful selective breeding. But many, many people outside of WP world-- I’ll bet some of the people reading this thread right now-- think that there is rampant drugging or worse kinds of abuse behind that. And if you told them that some of those horses were getting there honestly, they’d still object that many more a having their heads tied up for hours or being loped for hours and all the rest. And they would (and have) called for changed in judging standards as the best, “top down” way to correct a job description that arguably does work for those top horses and those who can afford them, but which does not work for the vast majority of people and horses out there.

Are you sure you want to make the same argument for the hunters because billionaires can still compete and win without drugs?

Are you saying only billionaires and millionaires are winning? I will have to respectfully disagree with you.
I, and many of my colleagues, have shown at a pretty high level, with great success for many years without the use of calming/sedative agents. We win at good shows. A lot.

My clients run from comfortably middle class to uber wealthy. I take the time, as much as it takes, to find an appropriate horse, within the budget. Its hard sometimes, and expectations must be tempered, but it can be done.

The horses themselves must be allowed to be who they are. To spicey? More flatwork in the morning. Still too spicey? Become a jumper. Cant stay competitive at 3’6? Win at 3’ . With hard work, thoughtfulness, and horsemanship, a talented horse can find its place in the showring, even if he/she can be difficult, it all just takes time.

I agree that the western pleasure horses, as well as the halter horses look lame and, well freakish to my eye

Are there super wealthy people showing hunters? Of course! But the larger body of competitors are hard working, horse loving people who show because they love it. It’s not just about ribbons for mist of them. Are there spoiled asshats who want to win st all costs? Yes, in every aspect of every Equine (or other) sport.

FWIW, I have been sent horses, or had them come into my program the need, ahem…help. MDA worried me, as I really dont like needles, it’s very viscous and gave them a sore neck. The mares went on regumate, the boys got their s**t together through training. The ones that I was told wanted PP, same thing. And that stuff is gross…it stinks like rotten turkey, and frankly I dont think it did anything, waste of $25

[findeight]

@punchy

I said the import market, not the export market.

And I said and meant the export market as I was referring to that European based industry, not the niche market for their horses as Hunters in this country. An industry that is not going too “dry up” because of a rule change by a hobby club affecting some exhibitors on another continent.

[TheMoo]

@punchy nothing will change, people will still by the imports, and if people need to drug their WB’s we sure as heck won’t see a come back of TB’s. Those blooded WBs with athleticism get depo, PP, etc for their Ammy owners to ride. You honestly think that same ammy can handle an OTTB? Look at threads on this board, if people have an issue, be it training, health, whatever and own an OTTB they mention it in the title like it’s somehow different because it’s an OTTB. Nine times out of ten it’s not.

[mvp]

@TheMoo

If you think the billionaires/monied riders don’t drug, use perfect prep, etc despite being able to afford the hack winner at WEF you are woefully mistaken. Those BNT’s with the billionaire clients are who people follow when it comes to “prep.” I can think of several people right now constantly winning blues at the largest shows who have been suspended for drug violations.

Yes, but so what? The rest of the argument I made matters far more.

And the tough part is that it’s hard for the “also-ran” pro to hear from the imperfect-riding client, with the imperfect horse that they could afford that the client wants her trainer to get the vet to give them some X or Y because her friend riding with the BNT wins a lot and gets a level of customer care that includes quietly and vaguely “prepping” the horse before she gets to the show.

[findeight]

@mvp

Yes, but so what? The rest of the argument I made matters far more.

And the tough part is that it’s hard for the “also-ran” pro to hear from the imperfect-riding client, with the imperfect horse that they could afford that the client wants her trainer to get the vet to give them some X or Y because her friend riding with the BNT wins a lot and gets a level of customer care that includes quietly and vaguely “prepping” the horse before she gets to the show.

There you go. That’s the whole issue in a nutshell.

[TheMoo]

@mvp

Yes, but so what? The rest of the argument I made matters far more.

And the tough part is that it’s hard for the “also-ran” pro to hear from the imperfect-riding client, with the imperfect horse that they could afford that the client wants her trainer to get the vet to give them some X or Y because her friend riding with the BNT wins a lot and gets a level of customer care that includes quietly and vaguely “prepping” the horse before she gets to the show.

I got all that. Instant gratification has zero place in the horse world and I wish trainers would stop supporting that. My only point was that the monied clients still want a short cut and some trainers are only too happy to oblige because money.

[mvp]

@TheMoo

I love this post. I own that mare too. While she would make a very nice hunter and has a great brain, she’s not there yet. So I take dressage lessons and jumping lessons. We are a work in progress and my favorite trainers make no mention of regumate or depo.

Her first cycle of the season is painful for her. My vet did a work up to make sure it wasn’t more than a painful cycle. She just gets the time off. I enjoy the process and have no intention at the moment to sell her so I am in no rush to get her in the ring for the AA’s or the AO’s.

ETA: I didn’t buy my mare with an eye towards a specific discipline. I just loved the whole package. So if we end up just doing dressage that’s fine. If we make it into the hunter ring that’s great. If we never step foot in a show ring and just keep progressing I am good with that too.

You have my mare. Her first cycle seems to be uncomfortable for her, too. Apparently that’s not uncommon for mares. This is the horse, mentioned up-thread, who everyone wanted to put on Regumate… and we did, and it didn’t make as much difference as common lore would suggest. Rather, the change in her feed and, I think, her being secure and happy in her job and in her 23-hour-a-day management did more. She is not on Regumate now and I probably won’t do that again.

I will tell you, too, that the more broke she gets, the more focussed and relaxed she gets. And the more she does that, the more I can ride her with “less,” as you would a hunter. This is a mare who can feel “abandoned” if you ride her on a long rein (where she can lose her balance) and if you just “sit chilly” up there while she’s scared of something like hail on the roof. This one taught me that the ride you’d give, say, a green TB hunter doesn’t answer her questions.

But! The more closely I attend to her balance (and the rest) in a ride, as you would with a dressage horse, the more she can “stay with me.” And, being an old hunter rider, I am always trying to offer her a softer ride when she gets attentive and balanced. What I’m trying to teach her (which I think I was doing with the hunters) is that there is a “sweet spot” where she gets a very gentle, sensitive ride. She must pay astute and constant attention to those small aids, (because they will get bigger and I’ll put her back where she was if she misses the small signals), but she knows that they are there and I am still up there riding, not sitting chilly and waiting for her to figure it out. She needs more hand-holding than that green TB. I always try to being her back with my body before my hand.

If I ride her with this intention and in this pattern, I can teach her to look like she’s cruising around on a loose, “conversational” rein and in a long, relaxed frame. But what’s really going on is that she and I are really together, communicating through invisible aids. This is a horse you have to ride every step (or maybe, some day when she’s strong and closer to being finished, I can leave her be for a bit), but she can look like a children’s hunter.

[TheMoo]

@mvp exactly. My horse will eventually be ammy friendly. I just have to get her there. She’s got the entire package, just not the best start off the track to develop it so we were behind the curve to start. The woman I bought her from even told me to put her on regumate or depo.

[kirbydog]

@TheMoo

@punchy nothing will change, people will still by the imports, and if people need to drug their WB’s we sure as heck won’t see a come back of TB’s. Those blooded WBs with athleticism get depo, PP, etc for their Ammy owners to ride. You honestly think that same ammy can handle an OTTB? Look at threads on this board, if people have an issue, be it training, health, whatever and own an OTTB they mention it in the title like it’s somehow different because it’s an OTTB. Nine times out of ten it’s not.

They buy the WB because they dont need the extra energy (wrt training) the average ottb needs. BUT, having said that, there are literally thousands of TB’S showing. They are in damn near every division. And they can be competitive. We got ribbons with one at Junior Hunter finals. Hes a lot more work then his WB stablemates, but hes a winner. They bought him cuz he was more affordable, as a Tb

IME, giving calming agents to most of my WB hunters would be a nightmare! While not insensitive or stupid, they tend to be slower thinking and acting, depending on which breed you are talking about. They can be very different breed to breed
We had a darling TB that did the A/O for years and was reasonably competitive at the right shows. But he did have to gallop and work harder than your average WB, which wasn’t a great look at the bigger, better shows.
Look, cheaters gonna cheat whatever the discipline. Good people are out there. A lot of them. The majority.
I still feel like people who admit they dont show in the hunters follow this( page? Thread? Not sure what you call it!) just to bash them. Maybe they should educate themselves before assuming all Hunter jumper people are bad

[TheMoo]

@kirbydog

They buy the WB because they dont need the extra energy the average ottb needs. BUT, having said that, there are literally thousands of TB’S showing. They are in damn near every division. And they can be competitive. We got ribbons with one at Junior Hunter finals. Hes a lot more work then his WB stablemates, but hes a winner. They bought him cuz he was more affordable, as a Tb

IME, giving calming agents to most of my WB hunters would be a nightmare! While not insensitive or stupid, they tend to be slower thinking and acting, depending on which breed you are talking about. They can be very different breed to breed
We had a darling TB that did the A/O for years and was reasonably competitive at the right shows. But he did have to gallop and work harder than your average WB, which wasn’t a great look at the bigger, better shows.
Look, cheaters gonna cheat whatever the discipline. Good people are out there. A lot of them. The majority.
I still feel like people who admit they dont show in the hunters follow this( page? Thread? Not sure what you call it!) just to bash them. Maybe they should educate themselves before assuming all Hunter jumper people are bad

Agree and I have such a TB that most people think is a WB (even vets at first glance) and has the step, jump and movement to be competitive. It’s just going to take more work to do it without calming agents or depo. I’m okay with that. I love the hunters but do wish the style would go back to the era when Ox Ridge and Fairfield Hunt were in their prime.

There are very good trainers in H/J land that don’t use short cuts. Unfortunately, the bad are publicized more than the good. I also think, a lot of people are like myself. Love the hunters but hate the machine it’s become. The show season is never ending to the point where one can’t call it a show season.

And honestly this thread does hunters no favors when people are asking for legal alternatives to calm their horse down. Spirit of the rule and all that. Those same posters probably wouldn’t ride with someone like yourself because you put in the time they don’t want to spend.

Your program sounds amazing and the type of program I grew up riding in.