They DON’T have the physiologic equipment!
Studish behavior in a gelding is psychological and NOT physiologic. This is where the “pro” MPA argument falls apart. Geldings DON’T have the receptors because they don’t have balls.
1 Like
The mode of action is via the testes (hence why it works in male sex offenders. Geldings don’t have balls. We could get the same effect by castration of sex
offenders. It has little to do with the direct effect of the hormone in the brain.
1 Like
Exactly. The “studdishness” is behavioral in nature and not caused by elevated testosterone levels.
An undiagnosed retained testicle (cryptorchid) is possible, but rare, since most vets do notice if only one testicle is present when they geld a horse.
I suppose there might be a better chance that a grade/backyard breeding may result in a cryptorchid that is then passed on as a gelding because the owner was dishonest and unwilling or unable to afford the surgery to remove the retained testicle. However, I doubt that the hunter or jumper rings are populated with this type of animal.
I have had one “studdish” gelding and have known several others. All were tested, several years after gelding (mine, only out of curiosity since I was present when he was gelded) and none were cryptorchid or had elevated testosterone levels.
There are blood tests that are quite accurate in discerning what is happening testosterone-wise and from where it originates.
1 Like
Since we are defending depo without any scientific proof that it is okay for horses and helps geldings I’d like to provide my own.
What helps “studdish” geldings is to be totally aware as if one was working with a stallion and demand manners… never even considered depo for mine. Just found a barn situation with knowledgeable people. Funny how that worked and depo never crossed my mind.
My other anecdotal experience is people wanting to put my mares on depo or regumate immediately. Why? Because they lacked the skill or the time to put in the training.
If people want civil discourse about the depo ban and demand peer reviewed studies that it doesn’t work or is bad, then I suggest they show the same where it does work and it’s not bad. Otherwise g-your risking looking like your buying into the BS of square peg round hole for the sake of a ribbon.
5 Likes
I had mine at home.
You are spot on. Management, not medication, is key.
It is unfortunate that what is obvious to so many people (IE it is wrong to stick needles in your horse because you are unable to show them successfully without drugs) is causing an uproar for so many other people.
I’m glad USEF has finally stepped up. While the rule may cause some temporary hardship for people that have become reliant on using a chemical crutch to show their horses, it will no doubt benefit the horses in the long term.
Whether the new rule results in better training, or more consideration of temperament by breeders who sell to this market, it’s a win/win for the horses.
4 Likes
Forgive me if these topics have been covered earlier in thread… it’s possible that I’ve missed some…
I am not naive- I come from the pre-depo days, and there has always been something in vogue to calm horses, from reserpine to Dex to Carolina Gold. I wonder now how this effects the market- how many ponies and Ammy horses just became unsuitable for their jobs?
1 Like
None. The trainers will move onto something else as they always do.
1 Like
In
8 Likes
Do you think that testosterone affects them differently? Different amounts of receptors in cell membranes or similar? So same amount circulating in the blood has a more extreme effect?
OMG, endocrinology is so complicated. OMG.
Along these lines, I have a very sensitive and “alpha” mare. I suppose, really. she’s just a grown-ass, self-preserving, ready-to-raise-her-babies-and-see-them-live-to-reproductive-age, flight animal… just as natural selection made her.
This is the mare that everyone wanted to put on Regu-mate even though her behavior didn’t change markedly throughout her cycle. She was also kept in some unnatural, unrealistic ways (not enough turn out, in a stall next to whoever the BO wanted, stalls that had her hear that other horse but not see him/her). And she was also made very, very broke in hand by me. So she’s like the horses people say are really professional and focused under saddle but a druggable nightmare the rest of the time… except that she is excellent in hand, getting better under saddle and “unfixed” when loose and left to her own devices.
She reminds me a lot of a stallion, without the 24/7 preoccupation with sex. But she has all the ego-strength and sensitivity of a horse that you’d find “inconvenient” if you wanted a turn-key, consistent show horse.
Better management, a grain-free and high-protein feed program, as well as plain-old good riding has been great for her. When I finally can bring her home to a farm I build, I’ll experiment even more with her management to see if I can make her peaceful the 23 hours a day that she’s on her own.
One of the take-home points is that this mare’s behavior is rational and “within normal limits” for her species. But she is the product of domestication and selective breeding, so like all horses we tend to ride, she has a low pain threshold; she can read body-language and negotiations over space; she wants to be safe in a herd; and she is kind and forgiving to her imperfect riders.
The other take-home point is that these horses, even the sensitive, big-ego’ed ones, will rise to the occasion and behave as well as we teach them to. It take maturity, consistency and skill on the part of these horses’ riders and handlers, but it absolutely can be done.
So every time I hear someone talk about a horse who is trained enough to show but an ass on the ground or when “off the clock,” I do think that the first places to look are to holes in the training and management. And the people who roll their eyes at the show horse who, I’d submit, is not broke on the ground if he won’t be as polite there, I am quite sure that they just don’t want to work hard enough to educate their horse. And that’s too bad because no horse really wants to be in a situation where he feels “apart” or “against” his handler. No horseman should be advocating for that.
4 Likes
And also “the job” in the hunter ring has gotten very, very hard for most horses. What we are asking these horses to do-- lope around dead and power of the ground for an astounding jump, carry around a rider who may or may not have the saddle time and savvy to produce a tactful, supportive, fine-tuned-to-that-horse-on-that-day ride, showing with almost no turnout or even barn lights that turn off for weeks, trying to get calm and focused in the chaos that is the modern schooling ring-- is unrealistic.
7 Likes
Thank you again. I really appreciate the education.
This post explains to me why depo has an effect in the ball-less, but not the brain-less.
6 Likes
A friend of mine purchased an off track TB mare. She learned later the mare was kept on Regumate for racing as she had a well known habit of bucking off exercise riders. My friend sent the mare to a cowboy trainer, who at first reported that she was willing to work, easy to get along with. He took her trail riding, obstacle courses, etc. But when he started to bridle her up and ask her to work on contact he found a bucking habit that he said could have earned him his rodeo buckle. He also noticed that she seem to cycle in heat every few weeks.
Friend took the horse to a vet who found ovaries that had tons of cysts on them, and a massive infection that had probably been raging for years in her uterus. A caslick, medication to treat the infection, and the horse hasn’t offered to buck once plus is actually gaining weight, doesn’t bite, and is easier to handle on the ground. I wonder how many horses are the same way, and people label them rogues or drug them to get the right behavior.
9 Likes
So…regardless of what y’all think of the ban, depo has been banned. Anybody want to crystal ball gaze about what that will lead to?
-
Will the European import market dry up? If so, what will take its place? OTTBs? ðŸ˜
-
Hunter judging is going to have to change. There simply won’t be as many loopy reined, mechanically pricked eared rounds to reward. What qualities will emerge?
-
Will the tide turn away from the weeks/months long, big box corporate show venues and back to the local, independent level? It seems to me there will be fewer horse who can live in a 10x10 show stall for extended periods of time and still do their job. And more need for local schooling shows a short trailer trip away lol
-
What about the Big Eq ring? It will be interesting to see how recent and current top eq riders fare when the ban goes into place.
1 Like
Ummmm. No. None of the above. Why the heck would the European export market dry up? They sell them and ship them and don’t care how they are managed once across the ocean. They also continue to produce more suitable animals at lesser costs, like it or not.
Depo has been overused but not every horse has been on it, there’s too much money in the big box show model plus they have run the smaller circuits out of business. Cant unring that bell, especially if smaller show venues has fallen to developers.
Hunter judging does not HAVE to change. It should, IMO, but change has to come from within, not wishing it so.
Dont get how you think Big Eq will change. It’s been going for decades, since well before widespread drug testing. It survived without drastic changes and will continue. Not every show horse is unable to compete without drugs, despite internet wisdom.
Some trainers will find the next big thing, others will stand firm, tell clients the truth and stick with suitable horses for the job. Like it’s always been. Up to the horse owners to choose wisely and based on fact.
5 Likes
Honestly, I think they’ll just find another substance that hasn’t made the banned list yet. And when that one gets banned, they’ll find another one.
4 Likes
This is fascinting stuff. Led me to a Frontiers in Neuroscience article.
Thanks for the rabbit hole–I can put off grading midterms…
3 Likes
I really don’t think it’s going to have the drastic effect you’re implying here.
People who use it will find something else. People who don’t (a group that I’d wager is the majority) won’t be affected. Life will go on.
6 Likes
Why would you think any of the above would happen? None of it makes sense
-
No the European market won’t dry up; whether you chose to believe it or not, many of those horses are as quiet for real, as they appear to be. WRT the big slow stride, that’s the way God or the breeder made them. They simply don’t have any need to gallop around all that fast in the hunter ring, because the stride is so much bigger, it’s easier. They are purpose bred to jump, or do dressage, whereas a Tb is bred to run on a straight line
-
Hunter judging won’t change. Why would it? Again, if you have never ridden or trained a high end WB hunter (or jumper for that matter) you really can’t comment on the ride. It’s apples to oranges.
-
Many of your “big box” shows have paddocks to rent for the shows. Whenever we travel to Kentucky, Ocala, Traverse, etc, we rent a paddock. It is the best form of quieting a horse there is. And a good reward for a job well done. At a lot of the big show venues, people will purchase a farmette to bring their horses home to between classes.
-
If you honestly believe that kids like Brian Moggre, or the girls that did so well this year at the Medal finals won’t be able to ride because of the ban, you honestly have no clue what you’re talking about. Most of the top kids have competed at the GP level, so I think they can handle a little mareishness
4 Likes
Ok. It was just ideas. If it won’t effect the sport at all then why are you people spending 8 pages fighting about this topic?
1 Like
