Depo-Provera added to Forbidden Substances list for USEF effective Dec 1, 2019

[Ghazzu]

@mh97

That doesn’t mean people who are stating that depo is a sedative as if it’s fact should not be corrected. Again, making statements like “depo is a sedative and everyone using it is drugging their horse” with no true evidence to back up your claim is not helpful to having a productive conversation.

“depo” is a drug and, yes, everyone using it is drugging their horse".

Is that better?

[mh97]

@Ghazzu

“depo” is a drug and, yes, everyone using it is drugging their horse".

Is that better?

No need to act supercilious. I think attitudes like this (on both sides of the issue) are why seems so difficult to have a civil and constructive discussion.

[cedarlake]

I implant my mare every 3 months. From what I understand it’s the equivalent of a progesterone shot but one that slowly enters the body through time release pellets. It’s done wonders for my hot head but certainly will not cover up any training holes, although I’m not saying Depo will either.

Not sure if this is a viable alternative for H/J. It is a shame that CBD oil is prohibited. One thing about the barrel community is that we have very little regulation, which can really be a catch 22 with the bad apples.

[atl_hunter]

@Ghazzu

“depo” is a drug and, yes, everyone using it is drugging their horse".

Is that better?

Using that logic, anyone giving their horse a standard vaccine is also drugging their horse, since the FDA classifies vaccines as drugs. So, yeah, I drug my horse!! As I should. Whoo hoo!!

[Ghazzu]

@atl_hunter

Using that logic, anyone giving their horse a standard vaccine is also drugging their horse, since the FDA classifies vaccines as drugs. So, yeah, I drug my horse!! As I should. Whoo hoo!!

Nice try, but nope. Veterinary biologics and drugs are two different things. In fact, they’re not even regulated by the same government agencies. FDA has nothing whatsoever to do with animal vaccines.

[Bobby7]

What about all the dex people use? That can be harmful. Is it mostly because depo is compounded?

[CanteringCarrot]

@cedarlake

I implant my mare every 3 months. From what I understand it’s the equivalent of a progesterone shot but one that slowly enters the body through time release pellets. It’s done wonders for my hot head but certainly will not cover up any training holes, although I’m not saying Depo will either.

Not sure if this is a viable alternative for H/J. It is a shame that CBD oil is prohibited. One thing about the barrel community is that we have very little regulation, which can really be a catch 22 with the bad apples.

So, you use an implant to calm your mare? Or deal with severe/painful hormonal issues?

It is not a shame that CBD is prohibited. No shame at all. When you enter your horse in a competition you should be able to enter the ring with a horse that is not altered mentally or physically by a drug or other substance. If I need CBD oil to compete a horse, quite frankly we need more training or it is not the horse for me and my goals. Why is it so difficult to bit give a calming or pain relief agent and compete a well trained horse? Or admit that the horse isn’t suitable for the job? I suppose it’s not so black and white, and maybe I don’t have such greed for a ribbon/ranking/status/money whatever. Or I’m thinking too simple.

I also don’t think the barrel racing community is a good example of something to model after. The lack of regulation is a problem, IMHO. But again, I have no desire to compete something I have to hold together with pain relief or behavior altering products. Just my personal thoughts.

[endlessclimb]

Is anyone giving depo to spice a horse up? To make the lows less low?

Then it’s a sedative. Arguing it’s not is semantics.

[Nickelodian]

@Bobby7

What about all the dex people use? That can be harmful. Is it mostly because depo is compounded?

They started regulating dex a few years ago. Legal amounts are so low they’re not effective for intended use. Just ask my horse who broke out in hives in ky over the summer.

[cedarlake]

@CanteringCarrot

So, you use an implant to calm your mare? Or deal with severe/painful hormonal issues?

It is not a shame that CBD is prohibited. No shame at all. When you enter your horse in a competition you should be able to enter the ring with a horse that is not altered mentally or physically by a drug or other substance. If I need CBD oil to compete a horse, quite frankly we need more training or it is not the horse for me and my goals. Why is it so difficult to bit give a calming or pain relief agent and compete a well trained horse? Or admit that the horse isn’t suitable for the job? I suppose it’s not so black and white, and maybe I don’t have such greed for a ribbon/ranking/status/money whatever. Or I’m thinking too simple.

I also don’t think the barrel racing community is a good example of something to model after. The lack of regulation is a problem, IMHO. But again, I have no desire to compete something I have to hold together with pain relief or behavior altering products. Just my personal thoughts.

The implant certainly does not calm my mare in any fashion but simply helps to ease any discomfort in her cycle. Otherwise she’s delightful to ride.

Competing with CBD oil does not fill training holes of any nature and certainly isn’t mind altering. It’s a great option for horses that just need to take a deep breath and focus. You can think what you want, I’m certainly not in a place to debate it. I know what works for me and the training level my horse is at. She’s just got headed. Nothing wrong with it and certainly not going to pull her away from a sport she loves to do because she gets excited. If you think I’m doing it for greed then perhaps you should rein back your assumptions just a bit. But I guess with those few sentences you can surely tell my character. Wish I had such an ability.

If you dont don’t want to model after my community fine, I never said it wasn’t without it’s problems. But at least when I’m competing I’m open minded to other disciplines. I guess that’s because I actually tried them and took knowledge where I could. I personally have no desire to compete in an industry that is clearly so high up that they look down on others in judgement because they believe differently. And not only judge, but to then perceive them as illegitimate and cruel in a sense. Those are just my personal thoughts.

[mvp]

@tabula rashah

One big thing that I think competing within the CTR’s set of rules does is make you a better horseman. It’s become so common place to be like Dobbin is a bit stiff, give him some bute rather than Dobbin is a bit stiff, find out why this is happening and what you can do to fix it. And it’s not that you can’t give Dobbin bute, it’s that you can’t compete on it. It also forces you to learn your horse in and out- to the point where I know things like where my horse’s heart rate will be depending on what gait and what footing she is traveling through. I hardly think that rules changes that make you learn more about how to do better for your horse are a bad thing, nor will they result in a giant march of horses to the sale barn.

I have great respect for the horsemanship of distance riders (albeit less respect for those who race). But! If you are comparing legal levels of Bute to other kinds of drugging (for change in behavior), you are not thinking carefully enough, IMO.

I’d guess that 50% of the time “Dobbin is a little stiff” does not mean bad horsemanship. It often means “older horse is feeling the effects of osteoarthritis… in more than one joint…probably several of them, some of which you should not go about injecting… but try a loading dose of Adequan twice a year or some Legend before the show.” You are not going to fix osteoarthritis. If you retire your distance horse at the first sign of osteoarthritis, you must have deeper pockets than all these folks at horse shows (or have a great source of very cheap prospects coming along and don’t mind the time and cost it takes to make a solid 100-mile horse.)

Drugging to make a horse calm, IMO, is different. To me, a big reason that that is different is because horses are calmer when they understand the job they are asked to do. That means that failing to teach your hunter how to do his job such that he’s worried and quick, and then solving that problem with chemistry is unfair to the horse and to other competitors who were being the better horsemen.

[mvp]

@CanteringCarrot

I haven’t looked into concrete evidence that Depo acts as a sedative and I’ve obly heard anecdotal accounts. However, saying a horse given Ace and one given Depo don’t act the same isn’t a conclusive argument in itself. There are different “levels” of sedation, in my opinion. Some take the edge of, some make a horse straight up dopey, some knock them out.
.

I think you (along with all of us lacking pharmacological training) are missing the point: Depo does not physiologically function like Ace.

I don’t know the difference between a tranquilizer and a sedative, but I think those are different. And I think it’s equally misleading and loose to speak of anything that makes a horse quieter (heck, let’s include blood-letting, lunging to death and IV Magnesium in high doses) as a “sedative.”

Conflating everything this way opens the door to anyone explaining that, no Depo is not a sedative, do defend what they are doing with it. In geldings, eye roll.

[fordtraktor]

I don’t see why the sedative issue is even a conversation. Depo HAS been proven not to work for the only legitimate, not-sedation purpose it could be used for, suppressing estrus. So of course people are using it because of its perceived sedating effect.

[mvp]

@Ghazzu

It doesn’t matter whether medoxyprogesterone is a sedative. Read the rule–bolding mine–

“GR 410. 1.a
Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotropic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony…”

…And this is the point.

[mvp]

@GoneAway

“Perception is reality.”

It doesn’t matter that Depo has not been scientifically proven to have a calming or sedative effect (for that matter, it has not been scientifically proven to have an effect on estrus, either). The problem is that there is a perception among clients and trainers, primarily in hunterland, that Depo has that calming effect. Therefore, that is their reality. It is being used (and abused) on horses of all sexes as such in order to make them quieter. In some cases it’s being used to make the horses quieter because the horse is outside its rider’s skill level.
.

What? You mean Depo has a clinical effect for hunter trainers (especially for those cases of “over-horsed riders”) that it does not in Science? How do you figure?

What you wrote logically means that the shizzle actually does quiet horses; you did not write that it merely has a placebo effect.

[mvp]

@mh97

No need to act supercilious. I think attitudes like this (on both sides of the issue) are why seems so difficult to have a civil and constructive discussion.

One man’s supercilious is another man’s request for specificity and accuracy.

It’s not “mean” or “uncivil” to ask people to think and write carefully. After all, this is important. I do think it would be rude to practice spin-control in order to justify the bad horsemanship kind of drugging and the brand of complete moral relativism that is so popular today.

[GoneAway]

@mvp

What? You mean Depo has a clinical effect for hunter trainers (especially for those cases of “over-horsed riders”) that it does not in Science? How do you figure?

What you wrote logically means that the shizzle actually does quiet horses; you did not write that it merely has a placebo effect.

Ummm…you and I are on the same side of this argument. This was in response to mh97’s post where they complained that since Depo has no science supporting it, that those of us arguing for better horsemanship might be taking it too far. “Perception is reality” is not a scientific argument, it’s just trying to explain why it is being widely used as a calming drug despite the fact that it has no factual support. It means that some hunter trainers think that Depo has that quieting effect, so they’re using it because for them that is their perceived reality, not ACTUAL reality. It is placebo. As I stated it has no scientific evidence supporting any of its use. If you read any of my other posts you’d know I do not support the use of Depo.

[Tackpud]

@mvp

I have great respect for the horsemanship of distance riders (albeit less respect for those who race). But! If you are comparing legal levels of Bute to other kinds of drugging (for change in behavior), you are not thinking carefully enough, IMO.

I’d guess that 50% of the time “Dobbin is a little stiff” does not mean bad horsemanship. It often means “older horse is feeling the effects of osteoarthritis… in more than one joint…probably several of them, some of which you should not go about injecting… but try a loading dose of Adequan twice a year or some Legend before the show.” You are not going to fix osteoarthritis. If you retire your distance horse at the first sign of osteoarthritis, you must have deeper pockets than all these folks at horse shows (or have a great source of very cheap prospects coming along and don’t mind the time and cost it takes to make a solid 100-mile horse.)

Drugging to make a horse calm, IMO, is different. To me,.

There is a difference between medicating for a therapeutic purpose and drugging to alter the performance.

[tabula_rashah]

@mvp

I have great respect for the horsemanship of distance riders (albeit less respect for those who race). But! If you are comparing legal levels of Bute to other kinds of drugging (for change in behavior), you are not thinking carefully enough, IMO.

I’d guess that 50% of the time “Dobbin is a little stiff” does not mean bad horsemanship. It often means “older horse is feeling the effects of osteoarthritis… in more than one joint…probably several of them, some of which you should not go about injecting… but try a loading dose of Adequan twice a year or some Legend before the show.” You are not going to fix osteoarthritis. If you retire your distance horse at the first sign of osteoarthritis, you must have deeper pockets than all these folks at horse shows (or have a great source of very cheap prospects coming along and don’t mind the time and cost it takes to make a solid 100-mile horse.)

Drugging to make a horse calm, IMO, is different. To me, a big reason that that is different is because horses are calmer when they understand the job they are asked to do. That means that failing to teach your hunter how to do his job such that he’s worried and quick, and then solving that problem with chemistry is unfair to the horse and to other competitors who were being the better horsemen.

I think you read a whole lot more into my post than there was lol. It was a just a quick example. And really there are a whole lot of people who go straight for the magic pill route (whether it be calming, pain issues or anything else). I am a distance rider but it doesn’t mean I haven’t worked in the big leagues of other disciplines and know plenty of what goes on.

Addressing the money part- I would say I have far shallower pockets than 99% of the folks out there but the budget needed to compete in distance riding is pretty minuscule compared to most of H/J, dressage, etc. Seriously for a weekend of national level competition I might spend $200-$400 that includes my entry fees, food for the weekend for myself and my crew, gas money, camping spot, etc. And yes if my horse has issues that can’t be worked out in the parameters of the rules of the rides that I do, they will be stepped down to something they can do or retired for sure. It is 100% about the horse for me.

[mh97]

@GoneAway

Ummm…you and I are on the same side of this argument. This was in response to mh97’s post where they complained that since Depo has no science supporting it, that those of us arguing for better horsemanship might be taking it too far. “Perception is reality” is not a scientific argument, it’s just trying to explain why it is being widely used as a calming drug despite the fact that it has no factual support. It means that some hunter trainers think that Depo has that quieting effect, so they’re using it because for them that is their perceived reality, not ACTUAL reality. It is placebo. As I stated it has no scientific evidence supporting any of its use. If you read any of my other posts you’d know I do not support the use of Depo.

Please do not put words in my mouth. As I said several times already, if depo is truly dangerous it SHOULD be banned. However, yes, I believe in having actual scientific evidence to back up a claim. Maybe it’s the years I’ve spent in academia, as someone who holds a science degree and had the importance of scholarly, peer reviewed research driven into me, that is making me question many of the claims being made in this thread and elsewhere.